serving the office in the assignments that they had and not serving any other.

Mr. KELLY. They had either been appointed or retained by you? Mr. Fox. That is right.

Mr. KELLY. And they had certainly been appointed by Mr. Rotan, if they had been there when you came in?

Mr. Fox. Yes; the office originated in his administration.

Mr. KELLY. You say as to these, as we will call them, houses of ill fame, that they are not segregated, etc., in Philadelphia? Mr. Fox. Not as compared to what they used to be.

Mr. KELLY. What?

Mr. Fox. I say not as compared to what they used to be.

Mr. KELLY. Of course I do not know anything about them, but I am going to ask you this. In the last three years, have your county detectives, 20 in number, reported to you the existence of any bawdyhouses in Philadelphia which have not been prosecuted because of political interest?

Mr. Fox. They would have absolutely nothing to do with the bawdyhouses, at all.

Mr. KELLY. Not even to investigate?

Mr. Fox. Occasion never arose for that.

Mr. KELLY. And if you had suspicions that there were bawdyhouses in Philadelphia enjoying political protection, you would not have undertaken to have your county detectives to investigate?

Mr. Fox. In every instance I followed routine procedure. When complaints were made to me, I referred them to the head of the police department and followed up as to the report he gave me; and in every case he would give me a report.

Mr. KELLY. When you had rumors of the existence of gambling houses or bawdyhouses, did you start your county detectives out to verify those rumors?

Mr. Fox. Not in every case. I had an arrangement with the director of public safety that he would do the investigating, and I set up something that was rather unique; that is, I had an assistant district attorney who was called the head of the gambling house department, and who was subject to call night and day, and who often did go out at night, 12 or 1 o'clock, on calls. To that extent I cooperated with the director of public safety. He said that was sufficient cooperation.

Mr. KELLY. When this Rowland was elected magistrate, of course he was elected and took office, and during his prosecution he was represented by Mr. Gray?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. Mr. Gray was his counsel up to the time that he was finally sentenced?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. And Mr. Gray has tried a number of election cases, too, has he not?

Mr. Fox. I do not recall Mr. Gray in a single election case that I ever had to deal with. Oh, I will tell you what; he was very prominent in the 1917 election cases where he represented practically all the fifth ward defendants. From that time on, whether because of the ill fate that met his clients or not, I do not recall his representing any defendants in an election case which I prosecuted.

Mr. KELLY. Did you prosecute the fortieth ward election case in which Mike McDermott was prosecuted?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. He was chief counsel in that case.

Mr. Fox. He may have been.

Mr. KELLY. He was; I was in that case.

Mr. Fox. Then you have pointed out one case.

I doubt if you

can point out another. He was been rather conspicuous by his absence since the 1917 cases.

Mr. KELLY. As a matter of fact, did he not represent Magistrate Kenna

The CHAIRMAN. Pardon me; are we not getting quite a ways afield on these details? I do not want to deny the fullest kind of crossexamination, and I am not going to deny it, either, but I wish that we could omit matters that are manifestly immaterial.

Mr. KELLY. The only reason I asked that last question is because Mr. Fox had said that there were lawyers who were political factors, and then rather ingeniously picked out lawyers who, as a matter of coincidence, held political positions, and he left out the one man we all think of, who held political office only in the sense that he was a prosecuting attorney in Philadelphia for a number of years. My only thought was to show that even this man, who did represent men in election cases and political matters, had absolutely no connection with this organization, and he was the most able man in Philadelphia. Mr. Fox. Senator Reed, I do not think that Mr. Kelly ought to describe my selection as being ingenious. I gave what was my recollection, without any ingenuity, which would seem to imply an attempt to make a point that was not proper. I hope you did not mean that.

Mr. KELLY. I leave the inferences to those who hear.

Mr. Fox. I am adjusting myself to the circumstances here.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well; it will not have any effect on the committee these remarks.

Mr. KELLY. One other question, and than I think I am done. Mr. Fox, you said you believed there had not been an election in your time that has been thoroughly honest in Philadelphia. Is that based on mere belief, or have you anything really to justify this, that in a population now of nearly 2,000,000 there has never been an honest election?

Mr. Fox. I think I stated that I meant, by an honest electionor rather, a dishonest election-that there were a number of elections where fraud as perpetrated had no bearing on the direct result. I have in mind, as you probably have, the fortieth ward case, where there was this very deliberate averaging of votes in a situation where there was no need of it, and it played no part. To that extent, it was an action dishonestly done that played no part in the result.

I also have in mind a number of elections where I believe the fraud and chicanery practiced did have a very definite bearing on the total. Mr. KELLY. You answered Senator Reed's question in substantially this fashion, that crooked methods in the conduct of elections had been in general use in Philadelphia for quite a number of years, extending back as far as you could recollect, and that you also believed that there had not been an election in Philadelphia that had been thoroughly honest.

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. I ask you now, do you really mean that? You certainly can go back as far as 1911, can you not?

Mr. Fox. I will take it by comparison with 1917, when there were circumstances connected with that election that were shameful to the good reputation of Philadelphia, and when the fear of God ought to have been put into every one's mind and heart for an honest election; and I will say in 1927, ten years later-1926-there were more prosecutions being brought on election cases than prior to 1917.

Mr. KELLY. You do not seem to answer the question. Can you go back as far as 1911?

Mr. Fox. Can I, in my memory?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. KELLY. Now, in 1911 and in 1919, do you recall those elections? Mr. Fox. Do you mean the circumstances connected with them? Mr. KELLY. The organization at that time was not successful, was it-in 1911 and 1919?

Mr. Fox. The mere fact that the organization is not successful would not imply that there were any more purist methods involved than before. Occasionally the voice of the people speaks.

Mr. KELLY. Then there was, at some time, an honest election? Mr. Fox. There may have been a total reached that brought into office those who were opposed to the organization, but that does not imply that the same methods were not used to try to defeat that end.

Mr. KELLY. Mr. Fox, during all the time you were district attorney and Mr. Rotan was district attorney and you were in office, did Mr. Vare himself ever come into the office and ask for any consideration at all?

Mr. Fox. Of course I could not answer for Mr. Rotan.
Mr. KELLY. While you were in office?

Mr. Fox. I was an assistant with very specified duties so far as my contact with Mr. Vare is concerned. I have already said I have only seen or talked with him on half a dozen occasions, and I have already stated that they were purely personal greetings, and nothing

more.

Mr. KELLY. Of course, when you were elected by the board of judges, you felt that Mr. Vare had used his influence in preventing you from being elected?

Mr. Fox. What is that?

Mr. KELLY. You thought that Mr. Vare had used his influence to prevent you from being elected?

Mr. Fox. Word was brought to me that he was far from enthusiastic about my election.

Mr. KELLY. That is all, Mr. Fox.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions to ask on behalf of Mr. Wilson?

Mr. MAHANY. No. Mr. Chairman, but we would like to call attention to the fact that it is obligatory upon the election officers to fold

38996-28-PT 2--4

the ballots. The section you read omitted this very important provision [reading]:

As soon as the voter is admitted within the rail, the election officer having charge of the ballots shall detach a ballot from the stub and give it to the said voter, but shall first fold it so that the words printed on the back and outside, as provided by section 15 of this act, shall be the only words visible, and no ballots shall be voted unless folded in the same manner.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the number of that section of the statute? Mr. MAHANY. It is section 21, P. L. 429.

The CHAIRMAN. The act of what year?

Miss WILSON. 1893.

The CHAIRMAN. You spoke of the judges who examined the returns?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Are those judges elected?

Mr. Fox. Yes, except where, through death or other vacancy, they are appointed to fill in a term.

The CHAIRMAN. Generally they are elected officers?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Have they been elected or supported, generally speaking, by this same organization-put on the ticket by it, and elected?

Mr. Fox. For a great many years, in Philadelphia, the very splendid practice has prevailed of having judges who performed their duties well, who were unopposed at the election. They had the support, I should say, of all of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Of all factions?

Mr. Fox. Of all factions.

Mr. CLAPP. That practice has been departed from sometimes, though.

Mr. Fox. Oh, there has been the suggestion that some lawyers have gotten the support of the organization and in time have been elevated to the bench with the support of the organization.

Mr. KELLY. But in the case of Judge Renshaw, was there any criticism of the manner in which he had performed his duties when he was in the municipal court?

Mr. Fox. You mean while he was a municipal court judge?

Mr. KELLY. Yes.

Mr. Fox. No; I never heard any.

Mr. KELLY. They did not, even in the election cases?

Mr. Fox. No, sir.

Mr. KELLY. No; and you certainly would not question the integrity of the judges, even in election cases?

Mr. Fox. I certainly would not; especially as a very large number of them were dear enough friends of mine to select me as district attorney.

Mr. KELLY. You believe they are thoroughly honest?

Mr. Fox. I believe they are all thoroughly honest; even those who voted against me, as some of them did.

The CHAIRMAN, Do you know whether or not it is a fact that Mr. Vare resigned from the city committee just before his last candidacy, or about that time?

Mr. Fox. Whether he did resign?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. Fox. I do not know that.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know that fact.

Mr. Fox. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all, then, Mr. Fox.

That ends this particular hearing. I do not know whether the committee will take any other testimony or not. We may, after consideration. I have not talked with the committee. That ends this particular hearing, unless Mr. Vare or Mr. Wilson has something he desires to present.

Mr. VARE. No, sir; nothing.

Mr. WILSON. Nothing that we desire to present at this time. (Thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned, subject to the call of the chairman.)