ard grades of coal. Aside from the run of mine, which I have just explained, the first standard screen is an inch and a quarter screen. That is, it is a bar screen on an angle, and the distance between the bars and the screens is an inch and a quarter. Coal which passes over that inch and a quarter screen is known as inch and a quarter lump. Underneath that screen there is another bar screen with bars threequarters of an inch apart. Now the coal which passes through the inch and a quarter screen and over the three-quarter inch screen is known as three-quarter inch lump. The coal which passes through both the inch and a quarter screen and the three-quarter inch screen is known as slack coal. Now the standard grade-it may be inch and a quarter lump, run of mine; you may combine your inch and a quarter lump and your three-quarter inch coal. In that case the standard grade is known as three-quarter inch lump. Or you may combine your threequater inch coal and your slack coal, the grade then being known as nut and slack. Senator WHEELER. I think I understand it correctly, but I want to ask this question to clear it up. Was the price of your average brought down because of the fact that it contained this 25 per cent of slack? Did that have anything to do with bringing your average that you have given us down? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Well, Senator, in general the fact that you have a certain portion of your product sold at a lesser rate would tend to bring the average down. Senator GOODING. But the price that you have given for the year is your mine run of coal? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. In determining our average price, Senator, for all coal sold, we have taken into consideration the run of mine prices and the price obtained for the various grades of coal. Senator WHEELER. Yes. You gave us a figure of $1.90 just now. Was that for all mine run coal? Mr. WILDERMUTH. It was for all coal produced. Senator WHEELER. That is what I thought. Consequently that took into consideration this 25 per cent slack that you spoke of? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes; oh, yes. Senator WHEELER. So that I felt that it was misleading, perhaps, to some of the members of the committee, or at least to myself. You stated the price, for instance, that you sold coal at to the railroads. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. It appeared that you sold coal to the railroads we will say at $2.30. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. While the average of all the coal that you sold was only $1.90? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Senator WHEELER. That would be accounted for because of the fact to a large extent, that you had a lot of slack coal that you sold at, say, $1.50 or $1, would it not? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes; but bear in mind, Senator, when the railroad companies take run of mine coal they take the coarse coal, they take the nut coal and the slack coal and they are paying for the different grades. Senator WHEELER. Exactly. They are paying for it all together. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. And I have given to you the price that we obtain all together. Senator WHEELER. All together. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Senator WHEELER. And that included the slack coal- Senator WHEELER (continuing). That you sold to other companies? Senator WHEELER. So that would naturally tend to bring the year's average below the price that was paid by the railroad, is that right? Mr. WILDERMUTH. If the prices for slack were depressed it would tend to do so. Senator WHEELER. Yes. Mr. WILDERMUTH. But that is everything in coal accountingyour price is based on run of mine. Senator WHEELER. I see. But you see we gathered-at least I did at first I gathered when you gave us the price at $1.90 that that was for just mine run coal. But as I understand it, that was not for the mine-run coal as you sold it to the railroad companies That was for all coal, including slack and everything else? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Senator WHEELER. Yes. Mr. WILDERMUTH. But the railroad company got the same proportion of slack as prevailed in our general business. Senator WHEELER. Oh, I understand that, but some of the rest of the coal companies did not get it that way. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Well, I am not advised as to the other coal companies, Senator. Senator FESS. What the committee is interested in knowing, Judge, is this: You get more from the railroads than you do from the general public, and is it because the railroads have to have a higher grade of coal, or what? Mr. WILDERMUTH. No, sir. Senator FESS. Why is that? Mr. WILDERMUTH. The coal sold the railroads is the same coal that is sold other customers. But I will be frank with you: It is an easier proposition to get good prices from a railroad than it is from a fellow that runs a sawmill or a flour mill. Our trouble comes from miscellaneous business, the large part of our trouble in low prices. The man that uses a car a week will Jew your price down far more than the man that uses 20 cars a week. Senator COUZENS. I think the misunderstanding arose out of the fact that you stated at the inception that you were only going to talk about run of mine. Mr. WILDERMUTH. I have, sir. Senator COUZENS. But you have not only talked about run of mine, but you have talked about the average of all your coal. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Well, that is run of mine. Senator COUZENS. No, no; because your average of all the coal included different sizes after running through the screen. Mr. WILDERMUTH. But when they are combined it is run of mine. Senator COUZENS. I understand, but when you arrived at an average price of $1.90 you took all the lump that you might have sold at $3, you took all the lump that you might have sold at $2, all the run of mine that you might have sold at $1, all the nut and slack that you might have sold at $1,25, and you averaged them up. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Absolutely correct. Senator COUZENS. Then your statement that you were just talking about run of mine was not correct, because you averaged all the sizes that were not in run-of-mine sizes when they went to the market. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Well, what I meant is that they were on the basis of run of mine. Senator COUZENS. Well, that is a different thing than being run of mine. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Senator GOODING. Well, all as far as the railroads are concerned. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Senator PINE. That would be the only way to arrive at a fair comparison, would it not? Senator WHEELER. No; it would be misleading to the committee; I do not mean intentionally. Mr. WILDERMUTH. I think, Senator, that I said that I was giving the average price. The average price is the run-of-mine price, if I recall. Senator GOODING. Well, the committee understands the run of mine is coal that is dumped out of the tipple into the car without screening. RMUT Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. I was asked for the price realized on total tonnage. That was it. Senator COUZENS. So that when you say that you sold the railroads run of mine at $2.35, that your average price was $1.90, you are not talking about the same thing, because in your average of $1.90 you have included your slack, which is 25 per cent of your output if screened, is that correct? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Well, I should say then, Senator, our average run-of-mine price. Senator COUZENS. Yes. Mr. WILDERMUTH. All right; that is what I mean. Senator COUZENS. We do not understand each other now. Senator WHEELER. No. Senator COUZENS. In other words, if you sold the railroads run of mine at $2.35—— Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes, sir. Senator COUZENS (continuing). What did you sell run of mine to the sawmills for? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Well, some might have been at the same price, some higher and some might have been lower. Senator COUZENS. But if all the run of mine had been separated from all the rest of the grades after you had screened it, if you took all your run of mine sales, then the average would be higher than $1.90, would it not? If it had been sold as run of mine? Mr. WILDERMUTH. It might have been. Senator CoUZENS. Yes. Mr. WILDERMUTH. It might have been. Senator COUZENS. So we have not any average price now of run of mine by itself, have we? Mr. WILDERMUTH. No. You have the average price on the run of mine basis of all coal sold. Now incidentally the coal taken by the Senator WHEELER. I do not think that is correct-pardon me. Mr. WILDERMUTH. The coal taken by the railroad companies, they buy it on the run-of-mine basis, and yet we screen it and furnish it in two grades to them. Senator CoUZENS. To the railroads? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes; to the Baltimore & Ohio, but we supply them on a run-of-mine basis, although we furnish two grades. Senator COUZENS. But you do not do that to your other trade, though? Mr. WILDERMUTH. Not unless they so desire. Senator GOODING. Now go ahead and finish your statement that you have there, and then go back over it and tell us the price that you received for the different grades of coal, your nut coal, your lump coal-you had some lump coal, of course-and then slack. The committee, I think, will be able to understand you then. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Well, I am sorry if I have been misunderstood. I want to be helpful. If my language and yours is not the same it is because I am looking at it from a coal-mining standpoint, and possibly you are not, and you do not quite get what you want. Senator WHEELER. Šenator Couzens is a coal man himself. Mr. WILDERMUTH. I knew that. Senator FESS. The committee understands that you are not trying to deceive in any way. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Yes. Senator WHEELER. Oh, no. Senator FESS. It is a misunderstanding of the position. Mr. EATON. 1925. Mr. WILDERMUTH. 1925? The average price for our tonnage during that year, all tonnage sold, $1.928 run of mine. Senator COUZENS. Why do you say of all the year tonnage sold $1.92 and a fraction, and then add "run of mine"? Mr. WILDERMUTH. That is reduced to the run-of-mine price then. Probably that would be better. Senator PINE. That is what he gets for all the coal that comes out of the mine. Senator WHEELER. Yes; but it is not run-of-mine coal. Mr. WILDERMUTH. I think we can understand each other if we can agree on the use of the words. Senator WHEELER. You do not sell it all as run-of-mine coal, do you? Mr. WILDERMUTH. No. Senator GOODING. If you say the output of your mine possibly we can. Mr. WILDERMUTH. Suppose I give the figures, gentlemen, and you can label them as you see fit. Senator GOODING. Yes. Mr. WILDERMUTH. 1925, B. & O., 555,379.6 tons, at $2.10 a ton. Big Four, 33,412.9 tons, at $2.10 a ton; 96,501.35 tons, at $2 a ton; 10.450.95 tons, at $1.85 a ton; or 140,365.2 tons, at an average of In 1926, the average price was $1.784. The average price obtained for our coal. The B. & O. got 187,910.15 tons, at $2.10 a ton; 277,092.3 tons, at $1.90 a ton; or a total of 465,002.45 tons, at an average of $1.98, for the total of the 465,000 tons. The Big Four, 36,438.55 tons, at $2 a ton; 67,753.8 tons, at $1.90 a ton; or a total of 104,192.35 tons at $1.935 a ton. Now for the year 1927 I have just three months, January, February, March, and the average realization was $1.846. The B. & O. got 102,951.75 tons, at $1.90 a ton. The Big Four, 20,937.3 tons, at $1.90 a ton. Senator COUZENS. Why have you omitted the last nine months of 1927? Mr. WILDERMUTH. We were not in operation. Senator COUZENS. You did not operate during the whole of the last nine months of 1927? Mr. WILDERMUTH. No, sir. Gentlemen, I have not the records; they are cumbersome. I had our accounting department take these figures from the records, and I have attached to this statement the affidavit of our secretary and treasuerer that the figures are correct, and that the amounts set out are the amounts that we actually received for the coal. (The affidavit of Ray L. Phelps, giving the figures presented by Mr. Wildermuth, is as follows:) Ray L. Phelps, having been first by me duly sworn according to law, says that he is now and was during the years 1919 to 1927, inclusive, secretary and treasurer of the Lorain Coal & Dock Co., an Ohio corporation having general offices located at First National Bank Building, Columbus, Ohio. Affiant says that as said officer he had custody and charge of the records of the company and is familiar with said records; that the prices received for Pittsburgh No. 8 coal during the years 1919 to 1927, inclusive, are the prices shown in the four-sheet statement, which is initialed and attached to this affidavit; that said prices are copied from the records of the company and that the company received said prices for the coal sold during said period. RAY L. PHElps. Sworn to before me by the said Ray L. Phelps and by him subscribed in my presence this 5th day of March, 1928. [SEAL.] ANASTASIA READY, Notary Public in and for Franklin County, Ohio. Annual tonnage and sales realization of No. 8 Pittsburgh three-fourths inch lump, slack, and total production upon run-of-mine basis for years 1919 to 1927, both inclusive RUN OF MINE |