Senator WHEELER. You feel, Mr. Peale, that the great trouble with the area in central Pennsylvania is the local competition there. do you not?

Mr. PEALE. Well, local and outside, too, Senator, because when we get over into New England with our coal or go to tidewater, then we compete with the coal from the Virginias.

Senator WHEELER. Which district has the cheaper rate into New England-West Virginia or the district where you people are located?

Mr. PEALE. That is a little hard to define. In fact, I am not as familiar with it as I was some years ago. But the coal coming up from West Virginia naturally takes the coastwise trade, and our coal going up through New York State and from West Virginia on the all-rail business penetrates a certain distance into New England. So in a sense that sort of thing would be a dividing line. But as the cost of tidewater coal decreases we push back in our territory. and as our cost increases it lets them come back farther, and vice versa. So there is no definite line of demarkation.

Senator WHEELER. You feel, do you not, Mr. Peale, that, generally speaking, organized labor is a good thing for the country? Mr. PEALE. I do. I have so stated.

Senator WHEELER. Do you feel that it has been beneficial and has kept our standards of living higher than they have been in European countries?

Mr. PEALE. I do. I want to qualify that as before, that there is some light of redemption that I would like to see. I think we ought to work out our problems a little differently; that is all.

Senator WHEELER. I do not think that anybody believes that organized labor is always right and that the other fellow is always

wrong.

Mr. PEALE. That is what I mean. As a general principle, I favor it.

Senator WHEELER. Yes; as a general principle.

Is there anything, in your mind, to prevent West Virginia or the Southern fields-we will put it that way-from reducing their labor more than they are to-day?

Mr. PEALE. Well, I do not see why they could not. On the other hand, I do not see, as Mr. Warden said, how they could, very well. While I am not familiar with conditions down there beyond a certain point they can not go. Whether they have reached that point or not I do not know.

Senator WHEELER. Do you know what the minimum wage is for day labor?

Mr. PEALE. No, sir; but I understand that it is about $4 or $4.50. Senator WHEELER. You have given a good deal of thought to this subject, have you not?

Mr. PEALE. As I went along through a great many years; yes. Senator WHEELER. Have you any suggestions as to how the Congress of the United States might help the situation by means of legislation?

Mr. PEALE. Senator, I listened to your asking that question before, and that is such a broad question, it has been answered in so many ways and by so many people, that I must hesitate to venture an answer to it. That question was answered, I believe, by recommendations of the Lake Coal Commission; but, generally speaking, my thought has always been this-and I am not able to put în into a general formula-that what we need is more cooperation. Senator WHEELER. Among the coal operators?

Mr. PEALE. Among the coal operators, and cooperation between the operators and labor, and the distribution of coal and the operating of mines, etc. It all comes under the caption of cooperation, which we could make quite a picture of by studying it.

Senator WHEELER. Has not one of your difficulties been the cutthroat competition between the operators themselves?

Mr. PEALE. That has always been a great difficulty. For instance, we have a potential production in this country of, say, 14,000,000 tons a week, and we have an actual consumption of about 10,000,000 tons a week, speaking roundly; so that naturally there is a tremendous pressure to sell that extra coal. That forces prices down. And when I say cooperation, I think that is one of the things that we would like to control if we could find some legal way to do it.

Senator WHEELER. Do you think a coal commission created by the Congress would help to solve the situation?

Mr. PEALE. Well, I can scarcely answer that; I do not know. If you take the Interstate Commerce Commission as an example, I would say yes.

Senator WHEELER. That is what I mean-something along the plan of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Mr. PEALE. Yes; it would be very helpful.

Senator WHEELER. So that the public would be protected and likewise the coal operators would be permitted to pay a reasonable amount of dividends upon their capital and, at the same time, pay a living wage to the miners.

Mr. PEALE. Senator, this industry is in such a beggarly condition now, taking it by and large, that personally I would favor that, because I believe it could not help but do good.

Senator WHEELER. What the committee is anxious to do is to try to work out something to solve the situation.

Mr. PEALE. I appreciate that very much, and I am sorry that I can not give you more practical suggestions.

Senator WHEELER. If something of that kind could be worked out you, as I understand it, would be perfectly willing and anxious to deal with the unions, would you not?

Mr. PEALE. Yes; because they come within the same scope of authority. That would be all right with us.

Senator WHEELER. You believe in the principle of collective bargaining, do you?

Mr. PEALE. I do; yes.

Senator WHEELER. As a matter of fact, with large organizations of capital it is practically the only way which workingmen have of dealing upon an equal footing with the employers?

Mr. PEALE. Yes.

Senator GOODING (presiding). Are you through, Senator?
Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Senator GOODING. The great forces of nature have been especially kind to America in giving great coal fields more or less in every State in the Union; that is true, is it not?

Mr. PEALE. Yes.

Senator GOODING. The industry is only partially developed at this time as compared to what it can be developed into?

Mr. PEALE. Yes; that is right.

Senator GOODING. Now, with the overdevelopment of the coal industry at the present time, do you see any prosperity in the future for the industry without some kind of control, without some kind! of legislation that will permit the coal operators to get a fair price for their coal and at the same time pay a living wage?

Mr. PEALE. I agree with you; there must be some regulation so that excess production can be controlled and so that labor, capital, and the public can be taken care of.

Senator GOODING. Do you not fear that if this thing goes on, with the cutthroat competition and the still greater development of the coal mines, that the coal industry is going to get into a more serious, a more precarious condition than it is in at the present time?

Mr. PEALE. Financially; yes.