Mr. HERRIMAN. If we charge it all up.

Senator GOODING. For instance, the expense of iron and coal police.
Mr. HERRIMAN. We never have had coal and iron police.
Senator WHEELER. But deputy sheriffs?

Senator GOODING. And they are the same thing.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Maybe so, but we take the liberty of differing from

you.

Senator WHEELER. I think myself that deputy sheriffs are much preferable, let me say, to coal and iron police.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of them have you?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Well, Mr. Chairman, I can not tell you at the moment. They have been reduced a little.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you had any trouble out there by which you needed policemen?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes, sir. We had considerable trouble when we started the mines, very great trouble.

Senator WHEELER. You got out that famous injunction in which you stopped them from singing hymns on the church property, singing "Nearer, my God, to Thee" and "Onward, Christian Soldiers." Senator WAGNER. Yes; you stopped about everything.

Mr. HERRIMAN. That was one of three injunctions. The first injunction we had to get-and in this connection I want to say to you gentlemen that I had sincerely indulged the hope that we would not have to appeal to the courts for an injunction at all, and that I resisted such action as long as I could. Our first injunction was at the Bar mine, where the rioting became so great, the disturbance was so great, and the danger, as I thought, so great, both to the men and the property, that after the sheriff had issued his proclamation, and had come out and seen the situation himself, and admitted that he could not control it, I consented that we would ask for an injunction. I do not know whether you gentlemen had that injunction or not. That was the injunction at our Bar mine.

Subsequently, similar conditions arose at Clymer, and there again we had to apply for an injunction. And let me say in passing that an injunction has a good effect in stopping that sort of thing.

Then we held off at Rossiter as long as we could. I was anxious to avoid applying for an injunction, but finally, under the pressure of our vice president and general manager and our staff on the ground, that injunction was applied for.

Your particular difficulty with that injunction, and the difficulty that the newspapers and the public have had with it, was that it seemed to stop those men from singing hymns on the back end of the lot.

Senator WHEELER. That was one of several things that we saw. Senator WAGNER. May I ask you if you know just how comprehensive that injunction is?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes, sir; I have read it and think I understood it. Senator WAGNER. In order to see whether I am right or wrong about it, let me ask: In the first place, men are prohibited absolutely from marching on the public highways. You remember that, don't you-if you have it there you might refer to it?

Mr. HERRIMAN. I have not a copy of it here, but I think that is quite right.

Senator WAGNER. They are restrained from marching on the public highways?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator WAGNER. And, as I interpret it, with the fear that that would not be inclusive enough, you also have the word "parading on the public highways. Both these things are restrained absolutely by the injunction. And, thirdly, you restrain all picketing. In other words, whether it is for the purpose of persuading a strike breaker or anyone to join the cause of the union, a man may not under that injunction even address a strike breaker for the purpose of simply, possibly, persuading him to join the union, or to join the cause represented by the other man. That you absolutely prevent, so as to close his mouth.

Senator WHEELER. Yes; or you even restrain him from mentioning that there is a strike in progress there.

Senator WAGNER. And having prevented him from talking, as I interpret the injunction, you prevent him from singing hymns at a point 1,700 feet away, in the yard of the church. In addition to that in this injunction-and, of course, these strikers, the members of the union, had to rely upon the union to support them pending the determination of the conflict-you restrained any contribution by the United Mine Workers of America to the support of these strikers during the conflict as represented in the strike. Now then, you have stopped that. So there was only one other thing left so far as I can see, freedom of speech or freedom of the press, which I always understood we were guaranteed; and the only one avenue that was then open to them was the newspapers, in whose columns they might advertise and give the public information as to their grievance or their cause. But that you stopped by restraining the union from advertising in the newspapers. So what was there left to be done in order to advocate their cause?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Well, inasmuch as you are a very eminent juristSenator WAGNER (interposing). Oh, no, I am not. I wish that

were so.

Mr. HERRIMAN. And you have analyzed and interpreted the injunction, of course, I will take it that way.

Senator WAGNER. Well, that is the way I interpret it. There were some questions of conspiracy, but we were unable to get from the judge who issued the injunction, I will say much to my astonishment, any definition as to what the word "conspiracy" meant.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Well, I was not the lawyer in the case, and I was not on the ground when the injunction was granted.

Senator WAGNER. That is the effect of it.

Mr. HERRIMAN. What I did agree to do, or what I did tell my people to do, was as a last resort to get an injunction at Rossiter to prevent that sort of thing. You certainly understand that it is no playtime performance when the United Mine Workers of America start out on a strike and to prevent the company from operating its mine and producing coal. It is all right for one who lives in New York or in Washington, far from the scene of action, to have varying views of the situation, but when one is on the ground he knows that he is in a real contest.

Senator WHEELER. I have lived in a mining country all my life, and I thought I knew something about such conditions. But I have

never witnessed anything in the way of an injunction as drastic as the one at Rossiter.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Well, Senator, I am not a lawyer, and I was not there when it was issued. We trust to our counsel and to our people on the ground. I have to do that, just as you would do under similar

circumstances.

Senator WAGNER. We had the pleasure of discussing it with your counsel, Mr. Mack.

Senator GOODING. The unfortunate part of that injunction, as it seems to me, is that the deputy sheriffs, apparently with the consent of the judge, denied the right to picket in any form. And we found just as much brutality in your mines, although you may not know it. as we found where coal and iron police were employed.

Mr. HERRIMAN. By brutality in our mines do you mean at that one mine?

Senator GOODING. Yes. We had witnesses to come before the subcommittee who showed ugly scars and very distressing stories were told of brutal acts committed on them, not only men but women. Mr. HERRIMAN. Did you have any of our men who had been mistreated?

Senator GOODING. We had Mr. Musser and your supirintendent, and they had heard the statements made by these witnesses, but they refused to reply to them. They were at the meeting and heard it all. And I will say this, that Mr. Musser was very fine and assisted us in every way that he could. He was there, and he was asked, after those statements were made, if he had any reply to make to them, and he said nothing.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Didn't he undertake to reply though when you came over to Indiana? You were good enough to see him over there, as I recollect, in our home town, Indiana. You must remember that we had a great many of our men attacked. We did not put those deputies on there for the purpose of distressing the people, but we put them on for the purpose of protecting our men and our property, and we had the right to do that. And we put on as few as we could get along with, and we had to protect our men and our property, and we had outlying stations.

Senator WHEELER. We all agree that you had the right to put men on to protect your property. But your deputy sheriffs in that case did what men generally do under those conditions they go out and commit acts of brutality. When you put a policeman's badge on a lot of people the first thing they want to do is to go out and beat. somebody up.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eaton, do you wish this witness to-morrow morning?

Mr. EATON. Yes, sir

The CHAIRMAN. Then you will come back at 10.15 to-morrow morning, and now the committee will stand adjourned until to-morrow morning.

(Whereupon at 4.45 o'clock p. m., on Thursday, March 8, 1928, the committee adjourned until 10.15 a. m., on Friday, March 9, 1928.)

CONDITIONS IN THE COAL FIELDS OF PENNSYLVANIA,

WEST VIRGINIA, AND OHIO

FRIDAY, MARCH 9, 1928

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE,
Washington, D. C.

The committee met at 10.15 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, in room 212, Senate Office Building, Senator Frank R. Gooding presiding.

Present: Senators Gooding (presiding), Couzens, Fess, Sackett, Pine, Metcalf, Pittman, Bruce, Wheeler, Mayfield, Black, and Wagner.

Mr.

Senator GOODING. The committee will please be in order. Herriman, on yesterday the chairman made the statement that the purpose of these hearings was to recommend legislation back to the Senate, and that it would be necessary for all those appearing before the committee to be sworn in. So if you will now please stand up you will be sworn.

You do solemnly swear that the statements that you have already made to this committee and the testimony that you are now about to give have been and will be he truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

Mr. HERRIMAN. I do.

Senator GOODING (presiding). You may proceed.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. HERRIMAN, PRESIDENT OF THE CLEARFIELD BITUMINOUS COAL CORPORATION, NEW YORK CITY-Resumed

(Examination by Mr. Eaton, attorney for the United Mine Workers of America-Continued.)

Mr. EATON. Mr. Herriman, the Clearfield Bituminous Coal Corporation, as I understand it, is a subsidiary of the New York Central Railroad Co.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes, sir; we have so testified.

Mr. EATON. And supplies all the coal that it mines to the New York Central?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes, sir; the New York Central takes it all for engine fuel.

Mr. EATON. Now, then, in addition to those mining operations carried on by the Clearfield Bituminous Coal Corporation, does it lease coal lands to others for mining purposes?

Mr. HERRIMAN. We do.