Mr. EATON. You know who I mean by Lowell M. Limpus?
Mr. LESHER. Yes; he was here yesterday.

Mr. EATON. He is the gentleman over there now.

Mr. LESHER. Yes. How do you do, Mr. Limpus? [Laughter.] Mr. EATON. You did talk to him about it?

Mr. LESHER. Oh, yes.

Mr. EATON. Now, this Miners-Federated Union

Senator WHEELER (interposing). He is the representative of that New York Daily News?

Mr. LESHER. Yes; I found that out afterwards.

Senator WHEELER. Owned by the Chicago Tribune, a great Republican paper.

Mr. EATON. This Federated Miners Union was intended to operate only in the mines of the Pittsburgh Coal Co.; never to go any further than that.

Mr. LESHER. Not that I know of.

Mr. EATON. No; did you pay their rent?

Mr. LESHER. I think that is what some of the money was used for, to pay some rent; and they had a desk, I remember. They bought a second-hand desk.

Mr. EATON. Mr. Herr, the president, was from out in West Virginia, was he not?

Mr. LESHER. I don't know where he came from.

Mr. EATON. Did your company bring him from West Virginia for this purpose?

Mr. LESHER. NO; I think McCullough brought him.

Mr. EATON. Mr. McCullough brought him?

Mr. LESHER. Yes; I think they were old buddies.

Mr. EATON. Did the coal company pay Harris's salary?

Mr. LESHER. No; he worked in the mines for a while.

Mr. EATON. No; I mean after he quit in the mines. After he was engaged in this altruistic task.

Mr. LESHER. I don't recall paying his salary.

Mr. EATON. Did the Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce pay the salary through McCullough?

Mr. LESHER. No; I don't know what he did with this money. Mr. EATON. You are the comptroller?

Mr. LESHER. NO.

Mr. EATON. You pass over him.

Mr. LESHER. He is under me.

Mr. EATON. He is under you?

Mr. LESHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EATON. And you are familiar with the way the various payments are made?

Mr. LESHER. Those I am not familiar with I can find out about. Mr. EATON. Can you tell the committee how you paid McCullough? How the checks were made out?

Mr. LESHER. We didn't pay McCullough.

Mr. EATON. I understand, but it got to him some way, by some

route.

Mr. LESHER. We paid during the course of the year, or so, a matter of $18,000, through the chamber of commerce.

Mr. EATON. All right. Were those checks made to the chamber of commerce?

Mr. LESHER. So far as I know they were.

Mr. EATON. I want to know whether you know or not.

Mr. LESHER. I was not in charge of the comptroller at that time. Senator WHEELER. Did it go in cash or by check!

Mr. LESHER. It was all paid in check.

Senator WHEELER. You did not take down any little black hand satchel, or anything like that?

Mr. LESHER. NO; we didn't have anything like that.

Mr. EATON. Did you pay it some way openly, or in a hidden manner?

Mr. LESHER. It was paid, all that $18,000-McCullough, where he got his money was from the chamber, and that was all paid, to the best of my knowledge and belief, by check directly to the chamber of commerce.

Mr. EATON. All right. You will have those checks produced here, will you?

Mr. LESHER. If the committee desires them.

Mr. EATON. Well, we want you to produce them.

Mr. LESHER. Yes, sir..

Senator WAGNER. I suppose there was some voucher kept by you showing the reason for the payment to the chamber of commerce? Mr. LESHER. That was probably marked "Subscription to the chamber of commerce."

Senator WAGNER. Nothing more than that?

Mr. LESHER. I don't think so.

Senator GOODING. For civic purposes; or how did you carry it? Mr. LESHER. It would be under general expenses, I suppose. Now, let me see what you want. Will photographic copies of those checks be satisfactory?

Mr. EATON. I would rather have the originals, if you do not mind. Mr. LESHER. I will bring the originals, and the photographs, and then maybe we can take back the originals. You would not trust these photographs?

Mr. EATON. I would rather have the originals.

Mr. LESHER. All right.

Mr. EATON. Now, this Pittsburgh Chamber of Commerce is now organizing another neutral investigation of this coal business, are they not?

Mr. LESHER. I am afraid they are.

Mr. EATON. Are you paying any of the expenses of this neutral investigation?

Mr. LESHER. NO; I think we are through.

Mr. EATON. Your company has quit that?

Mr. LESHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. EATON. Mr, Lesher, you were asked, I think by telegram-I am not sure whether you got the request, but I think you did-to give us the record of the sales of the Pittsburgh Coal Co. to the railroads for certain years. Did you get a notice or request?

Mr. LESHER. NO; I did not. It did not specify anything particular I should bring.

Mr. EATON. Well, have you at the hotel information from the records of the company so that you can give the committee the record of sales to individual railroad companies, say, from 1919 down

to date, and the prices received, by various years, for your various sales to the various railroad companies?

Mr. LESHER. You asked that of Mr. Warden, and the stuff came in this morning, and we will have it in shape by to-morrow morning. Mr. EATON. All right. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you through with the witness?

Mr. EATON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senators, any questions?

(After a pause.) You may stand aside. The witness was excused.)

The CHAIRMAN. Who is the next? will take about 20 minutes?

Have you a short witness who

Mr. EATON. No, Mr. Chairman; we do not have. The next witness will take some considerable time. If this is a suitable time for adjournment, I would like to keep this in consecutive order, and this witness who has just left the stand said that he can give us the prices to-morrow, and it would come in in regular order, if that will suit the convenience of the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, if you have a witness we can go ahead.
Mr. EATON. There are other witnesses here.

The CHAIRMAN. If you have a witness we can get through with in about 20 or 25 minutes, you may call him.

Mr. EATON. I will call Mr. Herriman. If the committee please, in connection with the testimony of the last witness, I desire to read into the record, as taken from the Standard Trade Report, issued by the Standard Corporations Records Co., the following data as to the net income of the Pittsburgh Coal Co. for certain years.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. EATON. Beginning with the year 1917, the net income for that year was $14,076,852.

Senator COUZENS. Are you going to put those figures in, or read them?

Mr. EATON. Either way.

Senator COUZENS. Why not put them into the record?

Mr. EATON. All right.

(The data offered by Mr. Eaton is as follows:)

Mr. EATON. I also desire to offer for the record a statement from the same publication, as of December 31, 1926, the book value of the Pittsburgh Coal Co. common shares was $306.94.

1 Subject to Federal income tax.

2 Deficit.

After deducting portion accruing to minority interests in subsidiary companies. amounting to $77,617 in 1926, $90,365 in 1925, $51,690 in 1924, and $43,480 in 1923.

Senator SACKETT. Mark the parts you want put in.

Mr. EATON. Yes; I had better do that.

(The matter offered by Mr. Eaton for the record is as follows:)

BOOK VALUE

Coal lands, etc., were stated at $109,587,000 after depletion allowance, and plant and equipment at $20,985,000 after depreciation as of December 31, 1926. Investments in bonds and stocks were carried at $5,206,000, while the total of sinking and reinvestment funds was $4,041,000. Earned surplus was reported at $12,664,000, the lowest of recent years, while paid-in surplus stood at $58,417,000. Book value per common share was $306.94, after allowing for $2,100,000 accumulated and unpaid preferred dividends up to the close of the year.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, we will hear Mr. Herriman.

STATEMENT OF FRANK E. HERRIMAN, PRESIDENT OF THE CLEARFIELD BITUMINOUS COAL CORPORATION, NEW YORK CITY

The CHAIRMAN. State your full name for the record.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Frank E. Herriman.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live, Mr. Herriman?

Mr. HERRIMAN. New York City.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your business?

Mr. HERRIMAN. I am president of the Clearfield Bituminous Coal Corporation.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is that? Where does your corporation operate?

Mr. HERRIMAN. In central Pennsylvania, Senator. We have properties in Indiana County and in Clearfield County, Pa.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you in any wise related to the Pittsburgh Coal Co.?

Mr. HERRIMAN. No, sir; not by any way.

The CHAIRMAN. Financially?

Mr. HERRIMAN. No, sir; not in any way at all.

Senator COUZENS. Are you the company referred to as the New York Central Co.?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes; we are a subsidiary of the New York Central Co.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you occupied your official position with this company?

Mr. HERRIMAN. I was vice president in 1918, and subsequently made president. That would be over eight years.

Senator WHEELER. The New York Central Railroad Co. owns all of the stock of your concern, does it?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. And what were you organized for? What is the capital?

Mr. HERRIMAN. The amount?

Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Mr. HERRIMAN. $825,000 capital stock.

Senator WHEELER. When was that organized?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Well, Senator, that was organized a great many years ago, when the Beech Creek Road was built, when the New York Central sought an entrance into the soft-coal fields of Penn

sylvania, and they organized a coal company then called the Clearfield Bituminous Coal Co. That was about 1883, I think. And for a short time it was in the commercial business; it was not then owned entirely by the New York Central Railroad. It really came over from the old McIntyre Coal Co., which was in the New York Central Railroad, and whose mines it came

Senator WHEELER (interposing). Governor Fisher was the attorney for your coal company prior to his becoming Governor of Pennsylvania?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes; Governor Fisher was the counsel of our company.

Senator WHEELER. And he was likewise an officer and director of your company?

Mr. HERRIMAN. He was a director; yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How long has he been a director of your company?

Mr. HERRIMAN. He was a director before I became president. Senator Fisher, as we called him-he was a State senator-had been identified with these properties for a long, long time.

Senator WHEELER. And your company, as I understand it, did not abrogate its agreement or contract with the miners' union?

Mr. HERRIMAN. No, sir; we did not.

Senator WHEELER. As a matter of fact, you operated under the Jacksonville agreement for a period of something like three months after the expiration of the contract?

Mr. HERRIMAN. We did; yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Now, Mr. Herriman-is it Harriman, or Herriman?

Mr. HERRIMAN. It is Herriman, Senator; it is the same as Harriman, with an " instead of an e,

a.'

Senator WHEELER. I see. You considered this a binding contract upon your company, did you not?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes; we did.

Senator WHEELER. You considered it a binding contract legally and morally, did you not?

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes; I should say we did. Senator, this may be said too, that we observed it in letter and in spirit during its entire continuation. That would seem to justify the statement that we regarded it legally and morally binding.

Senator WHEELER. Your Mr. Musser, is it

Mr. HERRIMAN (interposing). Yes; our vice president.

Senator WHEELER (continuing). He said that he considered it morally and legally binding upon the company; that is the reason I asked you.

Mr. HERRIMAN. Yes; and I am quite willing to indorse that.

Senator WHEELER. And you wanted to continue under the agreement, did you?

Mr. HERRIMAN. We wanted to continue under the agreement with the United Mine Workers.

Senator WHEELER. As a matter of fact, you had found that operating in agreement with the United Mine Workers was beneficial to the company, had you not?

Mr. HERRIMAN. May I answer that in a different way, Senator? Senator WHEELER. Of course.