world why Philip Murray, of the United Mine Workers, or any representative of the United Mine Workers, should go on our property. Their relationship with us has come to an end.

Senator WHEELER. Well, but you gentlemen must appreciate that we desire to get their viewpoint, and that if we are to make a full and complete investigation of this situation, we must have that viewpoint.

Mr. BAKER. And if you were in our position I am sure that you would feel just as we do.

Senator WHEELER. And for what reason, let me ask?

You can

Mr. BAKER. We have been running since April 1, 1927, or practically that time, open shop. All our men are open-shop men, some being union and some nonunion. I have taken the position right along that I had nothing to discuss with these people. Why, just think of it. Here is a body of inquisitors, like you gentlemen, going out to our properties and taking our opponent with you. I do not want that. I will tell you very frankly, I do not want that. I would much prefer that you go out on our properties, and with your newspaper men, and take all the pictures you want, and take anybody else there that you wish. We will not be with you. go by yourselves and view our properties as you please. The newspaper men, who are pretty well acquainted with the situation, can take you to the property if you wish; but you yourselves go on our properties and view them. I do not see any reason why Mr. Murray, whom I have nothing against personally but because of his official connection I do not want on our properties, I do not see any reason why he should be the man who should go riding around over our properties under the circumstances that exist and have existed here for some time. I do not see why he should go around and lead you over our properties.

Senator WHEELER. He is not going to lead us anywhere.
Mr. BAKER. Certainly he is, if he accompanies you.

Senator GOODING. Well, we expect to make two trips around over the properties, and later on you will be with us. You will have your opportunity to show us the situation from your standpoint.

Mr. BAKER. That is correct, as I understand it, but why should he take you on our properties? And may I say this: If you go to this mining district

Senator WAGNER (interposing). You understand that this is not a personal investigation being made at the pleasure of us four men. We have been appointed and directed by the Senate of the United States to make this investigation.

Senator GOODING. Yes; and I am sure that you are going to prejudice your case some with the public if you attempt to draw a line of that kind.

Mr. BAKER. But I can not see why Mr. Murray should take you onto our properties.

Senator GOODING. And I do not see how Mr. Murray can hurt you by accompanying us.

Senator WHEELER. It is not as though you were taking him out to your properties. I could readily understand your viewpoint as to the situation you presented a while ago if you were to take him out there, but we are here representing the Senate of the United States, under instructions to view this situation and make an investigation

on the ground, as impartial and disinterested persons, and I can see no reason why we should not get both sides.

Mr. BAKER. All I can say, Mr. Morrow, is that if the subcommittee insist upon it, I suppose we will have to accede to it, but I have issued orders to our people which I will have to cancel, that no United Mine Worker official shall get on the property.

Senator GOODING. Very well, we will ask you to cancel that order. Mr. BAKER. If you request that that be done, then I will do it. Senator GOODING. That request is now made.

Mr. BAKER. Very well, it will be carried out.

Senator WAGNER. I do not think, of course, that we should take a drove with us.

Senator GOODING. Oh, no; there has never been and is not now any intention to do that.

Mr. MORROW. Those are not special instructions but general instructions, and our position is that no union official has any connection with us, and, therefore, has no occasion to be on our property.

Senator WHEELER. But this is quite a different proposition. The Senate of the United States had directed us to come here and make an investigation of the situation.

Mr. BAKER. Has the Senate of the United States directed that you should take Phil Murray with you?

Senator GOODING. No, of course not, but this subcommittee has been directed to use our best judgment in making this investigation, and that we expect to do.

Senator WAGNER. Why, gentlemen, just look at the position we would be in when we go back to the full committee and to the Senate of the United States. These men would then, and they rightfully would, say that we made an inspection tour but gave them no opportunity to show what their troubles and difficulties are. Mr. MORROW. What are their difficulties?

Senator WAGNER. We do not know, but that is just what we came here to find out and to make a report on. And in order to do that we want to hear both sides.

We

Mr. MORROW. Here is our position as to our properties: Neither Mr. Murray nor any of these other gentlemen have been in our mines or our towns for two and a half years. They do not know what is going on there, and they are not competent to advise you. expect you gentlemen to ascertain that of your own accord. And of course you are free to go to any of our men that you want to talk to and talk to any of the people.

Senator WAGNER. If we should just go with you gentlemen we would be charged with making an ex parte, a one-sided investigation or inspection tour.

Mr. MORROW. We do not expect to go with you.

Senator WAGNER. Oh, that is all right; you are invited to go along with us when your time comes.

Senator GOODING (chairman of the subcommittee). Why, gentlemen, you would certainly want to go, would you not?

Mr. MORROW. Only so far as you might want us to go.

Senator GOODING. We want to make in the very short time at our disposal, in the next three or four or five days if possible, to have a general view of the situation and be in a position to report back to

the full committee. That is the duty that devolves upon us, that we are called upon to perform, and we must have a free hand to be able to do that very thing.

Senator WHEELER. Why, you gentlemen would be in the position of placing us in a most embarrassing position, if we were to carry out your request.

Mr. BAKER. And that is just what we do not wish to do.

Mr. MORROW. Oh, no; I do not want to do that.

Senator GOODING. I do not think you gentlemen need be unnecessarily alarmed.

Senator WHEELER. These newspaper men that you see around the room here are from all of the big newspapers in the country, from all over the country, from Chicago and St. Louis and New York and every place else. If we should go on your properties and were to say to Mr. Murray: You can not go; the newspapers would write that up. And speaking quite candidly to you gentlemen I think it would be just about the worst thing in the world that you people. could possibly have happen to you.

Mr. BAKER. Let me tell you gentlemen what the situation will be from a practical standpoint: Our company, the Pittsburgh Terminal Coal Co., has barracks-and the Pittsburgh Coal Co. have only one I believe-but we have barracks at these mines, and what Mr. Murray is going to do is to take you out and show you all those barracks and other stuff, and then while out there he will want to show you our mines and mining property, and then you men will have been all over our mines. I submit that that is not the practical nor the proper way to look at these properties; at least it is not from our standpoint. I am perfectly willing, and at your request I will say to you that rather than put you to any embarrassment I will cancel the order I made, so far as Mr. Murray is concerned, not to allow representatives of the United Mine Workers on our properties. I must say to you, however, that I think it is unfair to us to have you go over these properties in that way, and I am speaking now for the Pittsburgh Terminal Coal Co. and not for the Pittsburgh Coal Co., which is represented by Mr. Morrow.

Senator WHEELER. And which does not concern you so much? Mr. BAKER. It does concern me, because you will go out to the mines where there has been friction and you will not see the situation from our standpoint but from their standpoint. You will be going over our properties with our opponent, and who will be telling you the story from his standpoint. I am going to tell our superintendents that I do not want them to get into any argument with anybody.

Senator GOODING (chairman of the subcommittee). Certainly, and while I do not think it necessary, I am perfectly willing to caution Mr. Murray or anybody else as to the same thing. In fact, we will not permit any argument during our visit of inspection.

Mr. BAKER. I will instruct our superintendents that they will go along as guides only. And if you want to talk to our superintendent

Senator GOODING (interposing). Well, we will want to do that. Mr. BAKER. If you want to talk to him, or to any of our people, I shall be very glad to have you do so, but I do not want Phil Murray to stand by and hear what those people say and be in a position.

to bombard me without my presence there, or bombard him and possibly get into an unpleasant argument. Is that clear?

Senator GOODING. Oh, yes. I thought I had already made that quite clear. In the first plaec, we will ask Mr. Murray to step aside when we reach your superintendent.

Mr. BAKER. And any of the rest of our employees. You gentlemen must understand that they are only simple folk, while, on the other hand, here is Phil Murray, a very intelligent, high-class man, and a man who is in a position in any argument or discussion to put it all over those men.

Senator WHEELER. That is not going to happen.

Senator GOODING. I thought I had made that quite clear. They will be made to understand the situation when we have our conference with them, which will follow our conference with you.

Mr. MORROW. I spoke to you about getting around over some of this territory by automobile. That is the quicker way to make the trip to some of the properties, but as to others it may and probably will be better to go by train.

Senator GOODING. The subcommittee has had no further understanding than that we will start out by automobile to-day, and when we return to-night we will consider further the matter of our future trips.

Mr. MORROW. Do you wish to talk to any of the coal operators? Senator GOODING. Later. We will give you gentlemen full opportunity to present your viewpoint.

Mr. BAKER. Do you want to see the operators in a crowd or several of them together?

Senator WHEELER. I think so.

Senator GOODING. We can do that here in the evening.

Mr. MORROW. It is our suggestion that you might meet them all together, for instance, at a dinner at night, if that would be all right. Senator GOODING. That is very kind of you, but we would not want to accept such an invitation. If we did we would have to do the same thing with the representatives of the United Mine Workers, and we have not time on this trip for anything of that kind.

Mr. MORROW. Perhaps you would be criticized.

Senator GOODING. Oh, well, we would not worry about that, but if we should accept a dinner engagement from you gentlemen of course we would accept it from the other side.

Mr. MORROW. Naturally; that is right.

Senator GOODING. And this subcommittee is here for business and our time is limited, so that we must put in every moment.

Senator WAGNER. Oh, yes; we would all be making speeches the first thing we know, and this is neither the time nor the place for speech making.

Senator GOODING. Oh, no. We are here for a very specific and definite work, and must make as thorough an inspection as is possible. in the limited time that we have.

Mr. BAKER. Very well.

Mr. MORROW. I am leaving these maps with you for your information.

Mr. BAKER. I have no maps to present to the committee, did not think to bring any with me, but they can be furnished if desired.

At any rate I take it that the maps Mr. Morrow is furnishing will give you the information you may desire.

Senator GOODING (chairman of the subcommittee). All right, gentlemen, we wish to thank you for responding to our invitation to come and confer with us. We will see you again.

Mr. MORROW. As to the matter that Mr. Baker spoke about, and you understand that he represents the Pittsburgh Terminal Coal Co. and I represent the Pittsburgh Coal Co., if you expect to go to our mines I will advise the gentlemen there to be on the lookout for you and to show you any courtesy.

Mr. BAKER. Well, gentlemen, good morning.

Mr. MORROW. Good morning. We are entirely in your hands in

this matter.

Senator GOODING. I want you gentlemen to understand that this will be wide open so far as what information we can secure down here is concerned. We want it all. It is our intention to make a full and fair investigation of the situation, and as complete as is possible within our limited time.

(At the request of the representatives of the press a group photograph was taken of the members of the subcommittee and the representatives of the coal operators.)

(Thereupon Mr. Morrow and Mr. Baker retired, and Deputy Sergeant at Arms Brady was instructed to notify the representatives of the United Mine Workers that they would be received in conference.)

The subcommittee conferred with representatives of the United Mine Workers at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Senator Frank R. Gooding, presiding.

Present: Senators Gooding (chairman of the subcommittee), Pine, Wheeler, and Wagner.

Present also: Mr. Philip Murray, international vice president of the United Mine Workers of America; Mr. Patrick J. Fagan, president of District No. 5, United Mine Workers; Mr. Earl R. Houck, of the legal department, United Mine Workers of America; and Mr. William E. Collins, of the American Federation of Labor.

Senator GOODING (chairman of the subcommittee). Mr. Murray, I wish to say to you and your associates here present that the mine operators asked for a meeting with the committee for a few minutes before we made the trip. Of course we granted that request. The subcommittee thought, however, it was best when we came here to take up this work with you and your associates and have you accompany us this morning on this trip of investigation, along with Mr. George L. Hart, the official reporter of the committee.

The representatives of the coal operators asked that neither you nor any other representative of organized labor connected with the striking miners be permitted to accompany us on any visit that we might make to their mines or their properties or their mining towns. The subcommittee objected to that, and at our request they have rescinded the order outstanding forbidding any of the representatives of the United Mine Workers of America to go about their properties. It appeared during our conference that they have such an order in effect. The subcommittee felt that they could not properly make an investigation of the conditions existing here in this field and comply