Senator WAGNER. No, I mean for our own information; what about that?

Mr. BAKER. No, this is all purely hearsay. This is merely relating to you what I believe to be facts and which I gathered together in the usual way that an executive of any kind of corporation has to get his facts.

Senator WAGNER. What are they based on?

Mr. BAKER. On reports from our subordinates.

Senator WAGNER. From your officers and subordinates?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And by Mr. Osler, who is our operating vice president in charge of mining. And he is especially in charge of the police department. He it is who investigates

Senator WHEELER (interposing). Let me interrupt you for a question: Are you in charge of the office up there that I stepped into near the Pittsburgh Terminal Co.'s mine?

Mr. OSLER. Well, I have charge of all operations at the mines. I am located in Pittsburgh but I spend the most of my time at the mines.

Senator WHEELER. The reason I asked is, incidentally, one of your men up there stated to me that he thought the whole trouble would stop if they would take Squire O'Rourke and bind him and throw him over the trestle.

Mr. BAKER. Of course we have our own ideas about these things, but I think that was a rather unwise thing for him to say to you. Senator WHEELER. I should say that it was a very unwise thing for him to think.

Mr. OSLER. Perhaps if you had been out dealing with Squire O'Rourke for a while, as some of these fellows have been, day after day, your opinion might not be quite as drastic as that but might be quite strong.

Mr. BAKER. He is an ex-employee of the company, and—well, Mr. Osler, what happened to him anyway?

Mr. OSLER. He left the employment of the Pittsburgh Terminal Coal Corporation before I went with the company.

Mr. BAKER. At any rate, Squire O'Rourke has been rather antagonistic to us always and now he is and has been, and I guess the union men themselves will admit it, their very hardest worker in that section.

At any rate, as to the instances of attacks upon our people: They are very numerous, and they cost us a lot of money, and they have caused us a lot of indirect damge.

We have lost men, and I think our labor turnover, which naturally is heavy in times like this, is directly caused by the fear of a lot of the men who are working for us, and whom I believe are just as good men as ever worked in any coal mine, just as good workers, and who can produce just as much coal and are just as decent and law-abiding citizens, and who do not want trouble. They are not a lot of bums who are got together on the street for the purpose of breaking the strike. Lots of these men are decent, respectable, hard-working coal miners who want to work and are willing to work under these conditions.

Senator WAGNER. Have you been in the mines yourself to see how the conditions there are?

Mr. BAKER. Underground?

Senator WAGNER. No; I mean more particularly on your properties, to see how these men live in the barracks?

Mr. BAKER. Oh, yes; I go about once a week.

Senator WAGNER. I am speaking now about these barracks where they are living nine in a little room.

Mr. BAKER. Yes.

Senator WAGNER. Do you think that is a comfortable place?
Mr. BAKER. No.

Senator WAGNER. And that it is conducive to morality and respectability?

Mr. BAKER. I will say that it is not very pleasant, I admit, but these men are entirely satisfied. And let me tell you this, Senator, that we have had good food at that mine, and if you had stayed there to have anything to eat you would have seen it yourself and would not have objected to have partaken of it.

Senator WAGNER. Well, I saw how they live there.

Mr. BAKER. They do not have to stay there, you understand.
Senator WAGNER. Oh, of course.

Mr. BAKER. They do not have to stay there.
Senator GOODING. Where else can they go?

Mr. BAKER. They can go to other mines. There is plenty of work in Pittsburgh. And there are boarding houses. At each mine we have a boarding house that is run by the miners themselves, and they live in the houses. But the men prefer the bunk houses because they are warm in the winter time and because the food is excellent. I go there myself and sit down with the men, and whenever I visit the mines, which is very often, at least once a week or 10 days, I eat at those places for the purpose of myself investigating to see the character of the food, and I can say to you that it is very good, yes, very good.

Senator WHEELER. I do not know anything about the food because we did not eat there, but surely, Mr. Baker, you would not say that those bunk houses, in the way you maintain them, are either conducive to making good workmen out of them or having good morals or good anything else.

Senator WAGNER. Good health, for instance.

Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Mr. BAKER. I will leave it to you gentlemen to judge as to that. You are able to do it and I am not going to express an opinion about it. If you gentlemen lived in Pittsburgh you would know that I myself have been very prominent in social work in Pittsburgh; I am an officer of many institutions, and I have always worked for what you might call the welfare of all workers and people of that type. I am interested in that, and while I am not going to say that I think these are the best or as good as the houses, yet I can say to you that these are very good and comfortable.

Senator WAGNER. May I ask you this question? Have you ever seen any conditions worse than those, under which men have lived? I mean as a social worker, and you say you are one.

Mr. BAKER. Interested in social work; I would rather put it that way.

Senator WAGNER. All right; in any way you wish to put it.
Mr. BAKER. I will say to you gentlemen-

Senator WAGNER (interposing). But won't you answer that question? I just want to get your idea of things. Did you ever see men live under worse conditions than at those particular barracks?

Mr. BAKER. Well, I would not say one way or the other, Senator. You can judge as to that.

Senator WAGNER. Yes; but I am asking for your opinion and not mine. I have a very different opinion about it, but I should like to know what you think about it.

Mr. BAKER. It is not merely a question of opinion. You saw what was there and it is either good or bad.

Senator WAGNER. But I want to get your idea.

Mr. BAKER. I am not going to express an opinion one way or another about it. I think that the men are contented. I think that the men get good food, and that is the thing that the most of them want, good food, and they are warm, and they are well taken care of.

Senator WAGNER. They do not tell us that.

Senator WHEELER. We talked with them.

Senator GOODING. Every member of the subcommittee was shocked at the conditions we found at the barracks out there at the mine. Mr. BAKER. Well, all I can say is that I am surprised that you

were.

Senator GOODING. You are surprised that we were shocked, do you say?

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; absolutely.

Senator GOODING. You have a room there about 22 feet long, I should judge, or maybe 24

Senator WHEELER (interposing). No, not that long.

Senator GOODING. We did not measure it, but I think it was about 12 feet wide, and you had a half window in one end and a door at the other, and practically no ventilation there that I could see. It seemed to me that your front window was shut up. I suppose the men did that themselves, but how in the world they lived there, eight or nine men in a room, I do not know. I can not understand how men can live under such conditions.

Mr. BAKER. Well, Senator Gooding, if you

Senator GOODING (interposing). That is a pretty small space for

nine men.

. Mr. OSLER. For eight men.

Senator GOODING. Oh, no; nine men, in this place.

Mr. OSLER. There are eight men in the most of them.

Senator GOODING. I understand that; but in some of the bunk houses there was a bunk at the end of the aisle, making up for the ninth man.

Senator WHEELER. And we have talked with some of the men themselves who are living there.

Mr. BAKER. I so understand.

Senator GOODING. And I want to say that we are surprised to know that you are surprised that the subcommittee was shocked at those conditions, things that we felt were terrible.

Mr. BAKER. Of course, I do not know just what you saw. Senator GOODING. Perhaps you have not seen those barracks?

Mr. BAKER. Oh, yes, I have.

Senator WHEELER. Candidly, I do not feel that you know all that is going on up there.

Mr. BAKER. I think I do.

Senator WHEELER. Well, I have lived in mining communities, and I appreciate that many times the operators themselves think they know what is going on in their own camps, but that frequently they do not know. I will say this to you: That when we talked with some of the men, and we were permitted to talk to some of them when your foreman or superintendent or any others of your people were not around, they told us quite a different story.

Mr. BAKER. What did they tell you?

Senator WHEELER. Well, for instance, they told us that there are houses of prostitution out at Coverdale, being kept there, and that there are bootleggers.

Mr. BAKER. Being kept where?

Senator WHEELER. In one of your houses.

Mr. BAKER. Who is responsible for that?

Senator WHEELER. I do not assume that they are kept on your premises, or that your company is responsible, but I would feel that I was responsible if they were kept on my premises.

Mr. BAKER. Oh, now, wait a minute. But I do not care to characterize that in the way I think of it.

Senator WHEELER. That would not bother me at all.

Mr. BAKER. Well, I have no doubt that you are entirely honest in what you say to me, but

Senator WHEELER (interposing). Well, I am telling you what they say. And not only that but they told us that there was bootlegging going on out there at Coverdale, I think that's the same place. And one white boy told us that the bunk houses were lousy. Surely I do not believe you would permit that to go on if you thought it was so.

Mr. BAKER. You are quite right about that.

Senator WHEELER. I do not believe that you would permit that to go on.

Mr. BAKER. I would not permit houses of prostitution, of course not. I am a respectable man, a family man.

Senator WHEELER. Of course.

Mr. BAKER. And I would not permit that to go on, quite naturally. Senator WHEELER. I did not think for one moment that you would. I did not think you would permit it to be done for one second, but I am just saying to you that frequently these things go on when the operator or the man in the office does not know a thing about it. But nevertheless, you are going to be held responsible for it in the public mind if you do not watch these things very strictly and carefully and do not see that they do not go on.

Mr. BAKER. Well, now, Senator, I was not present when you were there. I wish I had been.

Senator WHEELER. And I wish that you had been.

Mr. BAKER. If I had known that it was going to be an examination of our property under the auspices of the United Mine Workers of America I would have been there.

Senator GOODING. Your superintendent was always sent for.

Mr. BAKER. Well, if I had known that I would have wanted to be there.

Senator GOODING. The first thing we did when we arrived on your property was to get in touch with your superintendent.

Mr. BAKER. That is right.

Senator GOODING. We did not make a move without doing that. Mr. BAKER. That is correct.

Senator GOODING. Because this subcommittee is here to get both sides of the situation, and we can not be useful and can not make a fair investigation unless it is impartial.

Mr. BAKER. That is quite right. I have nothing to say about that, but I merely expressed regret that I was not present when you were there. And if I had known that you were going on the property as you did I would have been there.

Senator GOODING. I am sorry that you were not present.

Mr. BAKER. Then I would have known some of the things that you are now asking me about. But I heard that a certain house number at Coverdale was mentioned, and I know something about the facts of that case. That was brought to my attention some two or three weeks ago. What was that house number, Mr. Osler? There was a woman who lived

Mr. OSLER. No. 108, I think it is. in it.

Mr. BAKER. There was a woman with seven or eight children living in it, and her husabnd had gone to the county institution, probably a mental case, and this woman has no means of support. They brought the thing to my attention about two or three weeks ago, and said she was peddling booze to our men, and that it was too brazen and they asked, "What shall we do?" I said to those people, "Where can she go?" I said to the young man in my office: "You try to arrange with the children's service bureau or some social agency here to take the children and care for them, and we will see what we can do about getting that person off our property, because I know she is a menace." Her husband is an ex-union man as I understand it. He was there during the union days, and he was one of the fellows that remained over from the union régime. Now, the fact that this woman and her family are there under those circumstancesSenator WHEELER (interposing). There was some other place mentioned besides that.

Mr. BAKER. But let me say to you that the fact that this woman and her family, and I know nothing about that except what I hear, are perhaps disorderly is unfortunate. I would have been glad to have got rid of her a long time ago, but I thought, Senator Wheeler, I was doing the human and decent thing to let her stay there when she had no place to go. I knew that she had eight or nine children, probably in steps just one year apart.

Mr. OSLER. The oldest is 15 years of age.

Mr. BAKER. I think you would agree with me that you would not throw her out.

Senator WHEELER. I do not want to disagree with you, but by that I do not mean to say that a woman with eight children or any other number should be permitted to sell liquor and keep a bawdy

house.

Mr. BAKER. She is not allowed to do that.