Mr. Goddard.

2107. In regard to this item of 2001. which you take for witnesses, when it is not expended, as in this case, is the money refunded?—Yes.

2108. And you have to ask for an excess Vote when you spend more than the 2001. ?-Yes, or else we are allowed to take the money from other heads of the Vote.

2109. May I ask with regard to Item P., Appropriations in Aid," with regard to the Fee Fund there is a certain sum of money invested in the funds there, is there not ?-Yes.

2110. Can you give us any information about that fund, as to how it is ivested, and who manages it? It is invested in the names of myself as Clerk of the Parliaments and the Clerk Assistant. It is a sum which arose out of years when great excesses of fees were received beyond the expenses of the House of Lords. The amount is 42,000l. invested in Consols. The interest is applied to pensions." 2111. Do you administer it ?-Yes.

2112. Is it a fund audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General ?-Yes, it forms part of

the audit.

Mr. Pym.

2113. Who are the people who get the superannuation from that fund?-The superannuated

officers of the House of Lords.

2114. Do you mean by "officers," clerks, and so on ?—Yes.

2115. Do you mean that every officer of the House of Lords who is superannuated under the Civil Service arrangements gets this pension in addition? No, not at all. It is the first fund chargeable with the pensions of the House of Lords officers, and if it is not sufficient (which it is not) to provide for them, then the fees are arrested to make up the balance.

Mr. Gibson Bowles.

2116. You say the amount of this fund is 42,000l. ?-Yės.

2117. Do I understand the total fund amounts to 42,000l. ?—Yes.

CIVIL SERVICE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS, 1899-1900.

Class II.-Vote 1.-House of Lords Officescontinued.

Mr. Gibson Bowles-continued.

2118. That is only about one year's ordinary fees, is it not?-One whole year's fees, in the present condition of things. These fees, I may say, are very large of late years; they are unusually heavy; they have increased in the last three or four years very much.

2119. These fees are not supposed to be subject to the purview of Parliament; is that so?-They are settled by the House of Lords. The House of Lords and the House of Commons settle their own scale of fees.

2120. But I mean these fees are supposed to occupy a different position from the ordinary receipts, from the ordinary sources of revenue; are they not? They are all paid into the Exchequer.

2121. But the House of Lords, I believe, claims a special control over them ?-Do you mean in regard to fixing the amount of the fees? The amount charged to suitors is, of course, fixed by the House of Lords.

2122. Does the House of Lords claim any special authority over the fund created out of fees?-No; except for the purpose of paying pensions. The interest on this fund, by an arrangement made with the Treasury many the pensions are to come. years ago, is to be the primary fund out of which

2123. You mean this fund of 42,000l. ?—Yes.

2124. Iam not speaking of that for the moment; what I am asking is, whether the House of Lords claims any special authority, for instance, over this 42,000l. realised in the year as fees ?-Only this that the House of Lords will take the fees necessary to make up the amount for the pensions of its officers before paying the balance into the Exchequer; that is all.

2125. Am I right in saying that the authority which the House of Lords claims and exercises over these fees, this 42,000l., is authority to deduct from it, before paying into the Exchequer, any amount that may be required to complete the sum necessary for pensions; is that an accurate description of it ?—Yes.

[Mr. Graham withdrew.

TREASURY AND SUBORDINATE DEPARTMENTS.

Sir Brampton Gurdon.

2130. (To Sir E. W. Hamilton.) May I ask, with regard to Sub-head S., why the principal

chemist of the Government Laboratories has now been put under your Vote?-It was the result of the recommendation of a Departmental Committee.

2131. Where does he work?--He works at Somerset House, I think.

Mr. Austen Chamberlain.

2132. I think it is the case that he works at Somerset House, or in one of the buildings attached to the Inland Revenue Department; but he is the principal adviser of the Government on subjects coming within his cognizance, is he not?-That is so.

2133. His assistants, or certain of his assistants, are charged in the Inland Revenue Vote because they are practically Inland Revenue Officers ?-Yes.

2134. But the principal chemist being the adviser to the Government generally, and not merely a Revenue Officer, he is charged upon the Treasury Vote as being the more general vote instead of being charged under the Revenue Vote which is a more special vote?—That is so. Sir Brampton Gurdon.

2135. Just in the same way as the Parliamentary Counsel is put under the Treasury Vote as being available to do work for all the departments?-Exactly.

Mr. Gibson Bowles.

2136. Does the principal chemist work for other Departments except the Treasury and the Inland Revenue ?-My impression is that he does work for the Home Office also, in regard to explosives for instance.

CIVIL SERVICE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS, 1899-1900.

Class II.-Vote 3.-Treasury and Subordinate Departments-continued.

Mr. Austen Chamberlain.

2137. Would not the Treasury refer to him for advice in regard to appointments in this Branch? -Certainly.

Mr. Gibson Bowles.

2138. Under Sub-head R, "Receiver of Hereditary Revenue," I see there is a grant of 445l. Why is it necessary to have a special Receiver of Hereditary Revenue; why not let the sums arising from Hereditary Revenue be paid in the ordinary way to the Exchequer by the recipients? -It is an office that will be abolished on a vacancy.

Mr. Goddard.

2139. In regard to item F., "Fees to Counsel, etc.," I observe there is a sum of 1,500l. voted and 2,120l. expended ?-Yes.

2140. What are those fees for ?-For drafting bills.

2141. Is there any regular scale of fees?—Yes, there is a scale.

2142. On what principle are they paid?—One of the assistants, for instance, is paid so much a year.

2143. That is a fixed sum ?—Yes.

2144. That would not be fees, would it ?—It is called fees.

2145. Would it not come under the head of "Salaries and Wages"?-I am not certain whether it is only fees; I fancy one of the assistants is paid out of these fees by a fixed sum, but I am not sure.

2146. Do you know why there was such an excess this last year; it was not a particularly drafting bills, it may have been. active Parliamentary year, was it?-As regards

Sir Robert Mowbray.

2147. Is it the case that in this office of Parliamentary Counsel there are a certain number of persons employed at a fixed salary, and others who are brought in to do extra work when the pressure of work requires it? There is the Parliamentary Counsel and the assistant Parliamentary Counsel who are paid by salary. When there is work beyond what they can do, then an outside man is employed.

2148. Of course he is paid by fees?—Yes.

2149. And that creates irregularity and difficulty in estimating the exact amount?—Yes.

Chairman.

2150. I want to ask with regard to the two last items, C. C. and D. D., in this Vote. Under item C. C., "Contributions to Certified Inebriate Reformatories," for which the grant is 10,000l., only 900l. was spent, and in regard to item D. D., "Fees and Expenses of Medical Referees, etc," 5,000l. was taken and 1217. was spent. Of course you could not very well tell immediately after the Acts were passed what expenses would be incurred under them, but do you see any necessity for taking or any possibility of spending 10,000l. upon these Inebriate Reformatories? Yes, it was thought and it is thought now that there was good reason for taking that amount at that date. It was quite impossible to tell whether the action that was contemplated by nearly all or at least a very large number of the county councils in England would not have immediately followed; as a matter of fact the delays were quite unexpected by the department. 2151. But what has happened in the year since that; what has the expenditure been?In the third year, that is to say in the Estimates of the present year, it has been reduced to 8,000l. every penny of which will be spent.

2152. Then the item "Fees and Expenses of Medical Referees" is in regard to cases of compensation to workmen, is it not, under the Act of 1897 ?-Yes.

2153. Do you think that the amount taken is at all excessive ?-The result showed it to be very excessive, but it has been reduced even more substantially now. This was really the first year in which it was possible to base the estimate on experience.

Mr. Goddard.

2154. Paragraph 3 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report refers to a case under Sub-head F., where an inspector of factories absconded, did he not?-He has absconded; he is believed to be out of the country now.

2155. Why were not inquiries made so as to find out, approximately, how much this inspector defrauded the public funds of?—I think the reasons chiefly were that the inquiries would have to have been in the nature of a visit paid to each factory or workshop which he alleged he had visited. Our inquiries would have been just simply duplicating the expense wrongly charged, because the officer who investigated it would have had to incur expenditure for hotel bills and travelling; and it was thought that no good result would ensue. It would also have exposed the department to all the factory owners in the neighbourhood, with, perhaps, a bad result. 2156. Is that what is meant when it is said in this letter, on page 136, that such inquiries would be "detrimental to the public interest"?-I think, probably, those were two of the most

Mr. Goddard-continued.

important reasons that were contemplated when that letter was written.

2157. Supposing this man was found, he could not very well be tried, I presume, without this information which has never been obtained ?— Sufficient information to dismiss him and to formulate a criminal charge was obtained.

2158. Were all possible steps taken to find and arrest the man?—Yes.

2159. Do you happen to know the amount of his defalcations ?-No; it would be quite trifling. His monthly expenses would not amount to more than 301., and it is probable it had only been extending over three months at the most.

2162. I observe that there has been a very satisfactory payment of contributions by parents for their children who are in these industrial schools? Yes, it is rising annually.

2163. What is the contribution paid by the parents ?-It depends upon the order made by the magistrate at the time of committing the child, or on application being made to him subsequently; it varies from 6d. a week to 28. in very rare cases; it averages slightly over 18. a week.

2164. The parents are legally bound to pay the contribution, but what you mean is that there has been a satisfactory collection made from them?—Yes; they are legally bound to pay, but these people are very destitute and very migratory in their habits, and they are not very easy to find.

2165. And also it shows an annual increase ?Yes, a very satisfactory annual increase.

[Mr. Byrne withdrew.

2166. IN regard to the Mercantile Marine, I want to ask whether this officer, referred to in paragraph 3, the late Vice-Consul at Bremerhaven, has been prosecuted?-Yes, and convicted.

2167. Then, I suppose, this sum which has been got back was got out of him?-It was got back through the Foreign Office.

2168. But, of course, there is no chance of getting back this net loss of 6851. ?-Not the slightest.

2169. He is now in prison, I suppose?-I think he is out now, but he was in prison. Mr. Goddard.

2170. In this year's estimate with regard to that matter I notice there appears for the first time a charge for "officers stationed at Antwerp, Dunkirk, Hamburgh, and Rotterdam, employed

in connection with transmission of seamen's wages"; is that expense to avoid, in future, such defalcations as appear here?-No; they were formerly charged upon the Board of Trade Vote. It is simply a re-arrangement of the charge.

2171. It has nothing to do with this point? No.

2172. Can any steps be taken to avoid such losses as these in future?-We have been trying to make arrangements with the Consul General at Hamburgh, who is the superior officer at Bremerhaven, by which we should get more frequent checks and more speedy remittances.

2173. There have been several cases of defalcations during recent years, have there not? -There have been two or three under Board of Trade, but over a great many years, I think.

[Mr. Fry withdrew.

On VOTE 10.

No questions

On VOTE 11.

BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.

Mr. Goddard.

2174. (To Sir E. W. Hamilton.) I notice that there were Grants in Aid under this Vote, which amount, in the two items, England and Ireland, to 54,500l., and they are apparently paid over to separate accounts and administered altogether apart from the Board of Agriculture; are they subject to examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and to the return of unexpended balances?—I think the Comptroller and Auditor General, to a certain extent, goes through them; he does not go through them in great detail, but I think the account is submitted to him.

able? No, not in any grant in aid. 2175. Are the unexpended balances return

2176. I notice in two cases of the separate grants there is a large and increasing balance in hand in the accounts here? That would be so in the case of grants in aid.

2177. Then with regard to the very large staff employed in the work of these funds, are any details furnished to Parliament as is done in regard to other Votes ?-I rather think that last year the Board of Agriculture undertook to give some more information about that.

2178. You notice in this particular case, in the English grant, there is an expenditure of nearly 40,000l., made up of salaries, 21,6587.; travelling expenses, 8,438., and miscellaneous expenses, 9,2691., making nearly 40,000l. against a total of only 43,0611. for compensation paid; that is to say, nearly as much expenses in the administration as the amount of compensation? -That is so.

2179. In the Irish case you will see the proportion is even larger. The salaries, travelling

expenses

Mr. Goddard.

2181. There are no details given ?--I think in Ireland it is in connection with the suppression of rabies

On VOTES 12 to 15.

No questions.

Chairman.

2183. Do you appear to answer for the Local Government Board Vote in place of the Accounting Officer, Mr. Monro? Yes. Mr. Monro is away on leave.

Mr. Goddard.

2184. With regard to Sub-heads M. and N. on page 175, the deficit is stated to be "caused by the appointment of additional temporary inspectors," is that a purely temporary matter; will it not cccur again?-Yes, it has gone on from year to year for some years past up to the present time.

2185. Was there any particular reason for temporary inspectors last year?-There was no special reason that year, the work on which they are engaged is practically permanent.

2186. You always have a certain number of temporary inspectors?—Yes.

2187. In fact that is the cheapest way?—That is really the cheapest way, I think.

2188. In this particular year you happened to have more than you expected?-We had not more than usual, but the Treasury authority for the continuance of the employment of temporary inspectors was not received in time to permit of provision being made in the Estimates.

Mr. Pym.

2189. You said just now that it was the cheaper way to have these temporary inspectors; is that correct?-It was thought undesirable to appoint permanent officers until it was absolutely certain that the work would be of a permanent character.

2190. Can you insure, under this arrangement, that you get thoroughly good men as inspectors, taking them temporarily in this manner?—Yes, we get the same class of men as the permanent inspectors.

2191. You can insure that you do get the same class of men?--I think so. Very great care is taken in the appointment of inspectors.

Mr. Pym-continued.

2192. Are there always a number of men whom you can put your hands upon, who are prepared to undertake work of this kind for the Local Government Board?-Yes; there is no difficulty in getting good men.

2193. What class of men are they?-A portion of them would be retired officers of the Royal Engineers.

2194. It is a class of work that you require men of that position to undertake?—Yes. 2195. What sort of fee do you pay ?—They get a fixed salary.

During the time they are engaged. 2196. During the time they are engaged?

2197. For how long is this temporary employment as a rule?-They go on from year to year.

Mr. Austen Chamberlain.

2198. "Temporary" only means, does it not, that they are not on the establishment; it does not mean that they are engaged by the job?Quite so. They have been re-appointed from year to year.