nature of the proposition then under the consideration of the House-an alarm founded on the evidence of the Roman Catholic bishops, and on the questions put to some laymen before the committee consistency, to state, as briefly as he could, the reasons which induced him to support the present resolution. He felt no difficulty from want of information upon this subject, because it was not encompassed by any of that obscurity in which the with respect to the possible increase to measure relative to the 40s. freeholders the influence of the Crown from this appeared to be involved. The facts re- measure, he must now say that all his lating to it lay in a narrow compass, and alarm had ceased. He desired it to be had often been presented to the consider- distinctly understood, on the part of himation of parliament. The principles on self and of several gentlemen on his side which it must be decided were familiar to of the House, that they gave their assent them all; for he might say, that, often as to this measure on a distinct understandthe Catholic question had been discussed, ing, that it was to lead to no dangerous from the time when Mr. Fox first brought increase to the influence of the executive it forward twenty years ago, down to the government, which he thought was already present moment, there had never been too large in England, both in the state, and one occasion in which it had been dis- in the church separately, and also in the cussed, without the necessity of a pro- impolitic alliance between church and vision for the Catholic clergy being either state, of which they unfortunately heard maintained or denied in it—without such so much upon all occasions, and which a provision being fully admitted to be he was certain was too large in Ireland, germane to the grand question, and where the state had much greater means almost impossible to be severed from it. of corruption than it had in England, and He could have wished to have gone on to where the church possessed an influence that grand question, without having his and a property of which it was scarcely path crossed, either by the present mea- possible for any Englishman who had not sure, or by that which he had felt himself been in Ireland to form an adequate concalled upon to oppose on Tuesday last. ception. He begged to state, that he It was no fault of his, that either of these considered the granting to the Crown the measures had been submitted to their no- power of direct nomination over the tice; but, as they had come under it, and priests, or the power of putting a negative as one of them was a measure on which upon that nomination when vested in he had no inquiry to desiderate, he had another quarter, or the granting to it a no hesitation in giving it his decided and veto on the appointment of priests, either positive support. He begged leave to directly or indirectly, or any measure say, that the generality of the words, in which would put the payment of the clerwhich this motion was couched, formed gy entirely into the hands of the Crown, one of the grounds on which he supported to be one and all of them measures which it. His hon. friend who had spoken last, went to plant in each parish of Ireland a might have voted for it consistently with hired officer of the government; and he the principles by which he appeared to repeated, that if any of those measures be animated; for, it prescribed no manner had formed part of the present proposiof proceeding; it pointed out no funds tion, he should have been among the first from which this remuneration was to be to hold up his hand against them. They taken; it only recognized the principle, were not to be found in it; and he therethat it was expedient that the State should, fore felt himself justified in giving to it his in some way or other, make provision for support.-He would now say one word the Roman Catholic clergy. Did any respecting the alleged necessity of promember think that the provision which viding for the ministers of other sects, if the noble lord had mentioned was too we provided for those of the Roman Calarge? Nobody was tied, by acceding to tholics. He contended, that there was this resolution, to approve it. He might neither consistency nor sound principle vote either for half the sum, or the whole to bear out such necessity. In point of sum, or double the sum mentioned; and consistency, this grant would not give to that no scale, or that any scale, might be the Roman Catholics a greater sum, if adopted, with regard to the payment of regard were paid to their numbers, than the bishops and of the priests. With re- was now given to the Presbyterians by spect to another point, on which he had the regium donum. When the Presbyfelt some alarm before he had heard the terians amounted to 5,000,000, and the Catholics only to 500,000, he would vote for giving to the Presbyterians the sum which was now given to the Catholics, and for restricting the Catholics to the sum now granted to the Presbyterians. In point of principle, it was necessary to support the grant, because the clergy were the natural instructors of the people. We had adopted at home the principle which acknowledged the propriety of educating the people. Let us proceed onwards in the performance of our duty, and adopt the same principle with regard to the people of Ireland. We were not called upon to provide for the ministers of every sect: if we were, we should have sects which were unknown to us at present, which had few or no followers, which had only a priest and thirteen or fourteen devotees for instance, Johanna Southcote and the believers in her Shiloh claiming from the government support and remuneration for their religious instructors. To say that we were bound to provide for the ministers of all sects, was not to take a statesman-like view of the question. We were not bound to do any such thing, until a sect became populous, as the Catholics were in Ireland, and included, as they did, the majority of the inhabitants of the country. These were the reasons which led him to intrude at present upon the House. He must, however, before he sat down, protest against one position which had been set up in the course of the debate. Nothing could be more dangerous to the great question of Catholic emancipation, than to admit, that we gave this provision to the Catholic clergy as a security. He denied that we did so. If we gave it as a security, we must admit that danger existed; which he for one could not conscientiously do. If we admitted the danger by giving a security, we must be prepared to do more -we must be prepared to raise the security, in case it were deemed imperfect or insufficient. He denied the danger. He denied the security. He considered this resolution, as he had always considered the veto, the control, and the commission, to be entirely foreign from the great question. That question was Catholic emancipation. Grant that to the people of Ireland, and it would allay all dissentions and disturbances. It would give us their hearts; and in giving us their hearts, it would secure our dominion over them, so that a world in arms would not be able to wrest it from us. Mr. Plunkett rose amid deafening cries of "question." He said, that he had only one observation to make to the House, and that he should not presume to make it at that stage of the debate, if it did not appear to him to possess some weight, and not to have been noticed by any of the speakers who had preceded him. With a great deal of what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend he fully concurred; and particularly with his last observation, that it was not dealing fairly with the Catholic question to consider this measure as a security against danger likely to accrue from conceding Catholic emancipation. He begged gentlemen who were anxious to support the Protestant ascendancy to listen to what he was now going to say. The hon. member for Aberdeen had, to a certain point, supported his opinion. He said, that he was sensible of the injustice and impolicy of leaving six millions of people without an adequate provision for their religious instruction. He agreed that these instructors ought to be paid. All that he objected to was the mode of paying them; and maintained, that the provisions shouldcome from the funds of the established church. Now, the advantage of this measure was, that it would be an anwser to those who said it was most unfair that the Protestant clergy should be supported from tithes paid by the Roman Catholics. Because, if the Roman Catholics made such an objection, would they not have here a direct answer? Might they not say, " We, the Protestants, contribute to the maintenance of your church." Those, therefore, who might be alarmed as to the effect of concession on the established church in Ireland, should feel, that this measure would operate as a buttress to support it. The House divided: Ayes 205: Noes 162. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, May 2. ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.] Mr. Plunkett rose to move the postponement of the order of the day; for the commitment of the Catholic Relief Bill. The House would give him leave to state the reason of this proposition. He begged, then, to say, that his hon. friend the member for Westminster (sir F. Burdett) was unable to attend in his place that night, in consequence of severe indisposition; but he was in every expectation of being able to attend on Friday next. The hon. baronet being very anxious to be present at the discussion in the committee, had desired him to move this postponement of the order to that day. Mr. Littleton wished to have his bill relative to the elective franchise of Ireland postponed to the same day as that which had just been mentioned. Lord Binning rose to correct a mis-statement which had gone abroad of what he had said on the second reading of the Catholic Relief bill. It had been stated, in several Edinburgh newspapers, that he had said, that, in his opinion, the destruction of the Protestant church in Ireland would be no great evil. He certainly had uttered no such sentiments; nor did he entertain them. He trusted the House would excuse him for setting himself right on this point, because nothing was more likely to injure him in the opinion of his countrymen, than a supposition that he felt any lukewarmness with respect to the Protestant church. Mr. Calcraft said, he was present when the noble lord had spoken on the occasion alluded to, and could undertake to say that he had uttered no such sentiments as those which had been attributed to him. BONDED CORN.] On the motion of Mr. Huskisson, that the House should resolve itself into a committee on the Importation of Corn acts, Mr. Curwen said, he would take that opportunity of calling the attention of the right hon. gentleman to some points which he had intended to suggest to him on a former evening when this subject was before the House. He wished to remind him particularly of the fact stated in almost all the petitions which had been presented, that there was a sufficient quantity of corn now in the country for the consumption of the present year. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman, in proposing to the House any measure on this subject, would state, either from some information on which he could rely, or from his own belief, or upon some other satisfactory grounds, that a want of corn was likely to be experienced; as that could alone, in his opinion, justify an alteration in the present system. Unless the right hon. gentleman should be able to do this, he, however reluctantly, must oppose his resolutions. He had no doubt that any regulation which should have the VOL. XIII. effect of preventing the averages from rising too high, would be beneficial to the country; but he repeated, in order to justify any alteration, it ought to be made out to the satisfaction of the House, that the home supply was not, or was likely not to be, equal to the necessary consumption. Mr. Curteis said, it was the general opinion here and in Ireland, that the produce would be amply sufficient for all the wants of the country in the present year. To propose any alteration which should have the effect of reducing the present price of corn would, he thought, under such circumstances, be a breach of faith with the farmers. In the present state of the House he should be sorry to have a topic of this importance decided; but, he should be very glad to hear what the right hon. gentleman had to propose, and to take it into consideration on some future day. The House having resolved itself into a committee, Mr. Huskisson said, that after the discussion which this subject had undergone in the course of the last week, it would not be necessary for him to enter into any long discussion upon it. He wished only to bring before the consideration of the House, the law relating to foreign corn as it now stood, and the facts which were connected with that law, in order that they might both be distinctly understood. They were, then, simply these. In the year 1815, an act was passed, by which all foreign corn was prohibited from being admitted into the ports of Great Britain whenever the average prices should be under 80s. per quarter. A subsequent act of 1822, left the last act unaltered; but it provided, that foreign corn should be admitted when English corn had reached 70s. per quarter, upon payment of 175. per quarter. This was the state of the law at the present moment, with regard to this description of corn. It had occured to him, and also to others who had paid attention to the subject, that under the present circumstances, looking to the high price which corn had reached, and to the deterioration which the corn now in the warehouses and under bond was likely to suffer, it was desirable that some facility should be afforded to the admission of that corn for home consumption, until the supply which the next harvest would af ford should be available. This view was taken, not for the benefit of the individual holders, but for that of the public. Indeed, no other consideration could have induced the government to recommend a departure from the present regulations, which affected this branch of commerce. Now, with respect to the facts, he begged to remind the House, that three weeks ago the price of English corn was 69s. per quarter. Since that period the price had been gradually rising. This day it was higher than on Monday last by three shillings per quarter, as he was informed. [An hon. member said, "four shillings."] Well, if it were so, he had a right to assume, that the former low prices were the consequences of an unnatural stagnation; and that the rise had taken place, owing to the time of year and the belief that no alteration was to be made in the existing laws; at least during the present year. His object was, to induce the holders of foreign corn now in bond to bring this corn into the market, between the present period and the 15th of August; and it would be necessary to hold out a sufficient inducement to them to do this. They might, as the law stood at present, bring this corn into the market, when wheat was at 70s., upon payment of a duty of 17s., and if they participated in the expectation which was entertained by many persons, that corn was likely to rise, they would of course abstain from bringing it into the market, unless the reduction of duty were sufficient to hold out an immediate inducement for them to do so. He had had some difficulty in determining what this reduction of duty should be. When he came down to the House on Thursday last he had studiously abstained from having any communication with the holders of foreign corn; because such a communication would necessarily have led to speculation. He had stated, that in his view of the subject, 8s. or 10s. would be a reasonable duty; and that such a reduction would be a sufficient inducement to the holders of foreign corn to bring it into consumption. He had since heard, that they would prefer keeping it back, and speculating upon the opening of the ports on the 15th of August. If the House should be of opinion, that 10s. was too high a duy, and that it would defeat the object which he had in view, namely, that of inducing the holders of foreign corn to bring it into the market before the next harvest, he should not be indisposed to listen to any suggestion for lowering the duty. His only object was, to adopt that course which might consult the public advantage, and the landed interest of the country. His proposition was, to give the holder of foreign grain an option of bringing it into the market, in portions of one third, for the next three months, paying a duty of 10s. per quarter in each of the three months; but, if he did not bring it out between this and the 15th of August, it would remain subject to the present provisions of the law. His sole object was, to keep down the price of corn, and to prevent it from rising to an unreasonable extent, in the interval between this period and the next harvest. The alteration of the law as to wheat would, of course, extend to other minor articles. There was a small quantity of barley, and also a small quantity of American flour, The whole quantity of corn in bond amounted to about 400,000 quarters; and the effect of the introduction of these 400,000 quarters would depend altogether, on the state of the supply in this country for the next four months. In the year 1820, the introduction of a quantity of foreign oats had the effect of greatly depressing the market, while the introduction of a much larger quantity, in August last, scarcely affected the market at all, and indeed was generally admitted to have been attended with beneficial effects. From the present appearance of the corn markets all over the country, and the state of the market that day in London, there was obviously a tendency to increase of price. Under such circumstances, the introduction of a limited supply of corn was not likely to be followed by any inconvenience. On these grounds, he was anxious to recommend this measure to the adoption of the House. Part of the corn now in bond had been so for six years; part for not more than three or four years; a very considerable portion of it had been bonded within six weeks after the ports were closed, in 1819. Of course, a much greater expense had been incurred by some holders than by others; but, however he might feel for the situa tion of particular individuals, the House could not take these circumstances into their consideration; they must legislate upon public grounds. If the holders of foreign corn should be disposed to bring it into the market between this and the 15th of August, it would tend greatly to facilitate the arrangements which might be hereafter made on the general subject of the Corn laws. He wished it, however, to be distinctly understood-and he was particularly anxious that there should be no misapprehension out of doors on a subject with respect to which the public were so sensitive that the present measure had no reference to what might be the future intentions of government; but that it referred solely to the quantity of foreign corn now confined in bond. The second resolution which he had to propose referred to Canada corn. The quantity of Canada wheat now in the country did not exceed 20,000 quarters. On the 15th of this month, it would probably be liberated by operation of law; as it would be admitted duty free, when the average price exceeded 67s. With respect to this he should propose a prospective duty of 5s. a quarter, in lieu of all other prohibitory duties. Before he sat down, he wished to say one or two words with respect to some observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Taunton, on the view which he had taken of this subject on Thursday night. In the first place, he must observe, that his hon. friend was a member of the committee of 1821, and, he believed, he had done him the honour to concur in the report of that committee. He (Mr. H.) had always been opposed to a system of alternate monopoly and free trade. In the year 1815, a few days before the present chancellor of the Exchequer introduced the resolution which led to the bill of that year, there was a meeting, at Fife-house, at which he (Mr. H.) supported a measure of duty, and strenuously opposed a measure of alternate monopoly and free trade, He did not succeed in carrying his own views at that time; but his opinions remained unchanged. He congratulated his hon. friend, the member for Taunton, on entertaining a sounder view of this question than he did at that time; for his opinion then was, that Corn bills were nothing more than pretences for raising rent. He now took a just view of the protection which was due to the landed interest. The right hon. member concluded by moving two resolutions, for carrying into effect the proposition he had submitted to the committee. Mr. Baring contended, that his opinions with respect to the Corn laws had undergone no alteration since the period to which the right hon. gentleman alluded. What he objected to at that time was, not a due protection of the landed interest, but an undue increase of that protection. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that he had been unable to carry his own views of this question, in the year 1815. But, if he had been defeated at Fife-house, he had nevertheless come down to that House, as zealous a defender of the bill, as if it had originated with himself. He did not find fault with the right hon. gentleman's own opinions. The opinions which he objected to were those which had been foisted upon the right hon. gentleman, and of which he had afterwards undertaken the defence. He (Mr. B.) had never said, that Corn bills were mere pretexts for raising rent; but, considering rent as the surplus, after all the charges and expenses of cultivation were satisfied, he had certainly contended, that the existing sytsem was calculated to raise it to an exorbitant extent. The degree of protection which should be extended to the agricultural interest, was a point on which the House could not legislate with too much circumspection. He had opposed the protection bill in 1815, because he conceived that a sufficient protection already existed, and that an increase of that protection was calculated to prejudice the other classes of the community. With respect to the measure now proposed by the right hon. gentleman, he thought it, in the main, extremely desirable. He could not help regretting, that the opinions which had been promulgated with respect to the state of the supply, and the observations which had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, as to the state of the currency, which had been very much misunderstood, had created a great deal of unnecessary alarm. He believed there was not the slightest ground for the apprehensions which existed out of doors, either as to the price of corn or the state of the currency. He objected to the period of the 15th of August, to which the right hon. gentleman had extended the operation of his measure. He thought it would be much better to give the holders of foreign corn a month or six weeks to bring their corn into the market. This would operate as an inducement to them to bring it into consumption, before the prospect of the harvest was sufficiently advanced to make them speculate on the expediency of withholding it. The present measure would interfere directly with the interests of speculators in English corn, but he did not mean to intimate that such speculators were entitled to compensation. When the interests of the public were |