generally the sort of regulations which he proposed to adopt for this branch of the trade and manufacture of the country. In the first place, it was necessary to impose certain restrictions on the persons carrying on this trade: he should be glad if this had not been necessary, but the large amount of the duties rendered it impossible to wave them. In Ireland and in Scotland no persons were allowed to carry on the trade of a distiller without the certificate of a justice of the peace. This regulation, which the peculiar circumstances of Scotland and Ireland rendered necessary, he did not propose to adopt in England. The qualification which he should suggest instead was, that persons carrying on the trade of distillers should inhabit and pay the rates of houses of the rent of 201. per annum. This would facilitate the collection of the duty; while, if persons who could distil in a tin kettle were permitted to do so, the excise would be cheated at every turn. The next regulation was, that all persons licensed to carry on the trade of distillers, should be resident within a quarter of a mile of a town in which there should be 500 inhabited houses, in order to secure a sufficient number of excise officers for the preservation of this branch of the revenue. With respect to the size of the stills, it had been found necessary in Ireland and in Scotland, where smuggling was extensively carried on, to use stills of small dimensions, because larger ones were ineffectual to prevent it. In England there was not the same necessity, and it was therefore his intention to reduce the size of stills from 3,000 gallons, the present rate, to 400, the dimensions at which they had formerly stood. He would now state to the committee the alterations which he intended to propose respecting the duties. The existing duty was 10s. 6d. per gallon, at 7 per cent over proof. It would, he thought, be a great improvement on the present system, to adopt the rule which was observed in Ireland and Scotland; namely, to fix the duty according to the proof strength of the spirit, and that duty he proposed should be 5s. 10d. per gallon. He would shortly explain why he had fixed on that particular sum; which might otherwise appear somewhat singular. The first idea was to fix a duty of 5s. upon spirit distilled from malt, and 6s. on that distilled from grain; but, on looking into the details of the subject, he found that it would be difficult to make a distinction

between the two kinds of spirit. He was therefore determined to make the duty uniform, without reference to its being distilled from malt or grain. It would be in the recollection of the House, that a bill had past last session for regulating weights and measures, which was to take effect next year. According to that bill, the standard by which measures were to be hereafter regulated was the imperial gallon, which differed from the ordinary wine measure on which the duty on spirits was at present taken. The imperial gallon might be represented by six, whilst the common wine gallon might be represented by five. If he had fixed the duty on the common wine gallon at 6s., the relation which it would have borne to the imperial gallon would have been inconvenient; as it would have left an indescribable fraction of a farthing unaccounted for. The duty of 5s. 10d. on the common wine measure, however, corresponded exactly with the duty of 7s. on the imperial gallon; and thus any intricate calculation would be avoided in the settlement of questions which might arise between the exciseofficer and the dealer. The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving several resolutions to the effect which he had stated.

Sir J. Newport expressed his satisfaction at the statement of the right hon. gentleman. Great advantages must be the result of a free intercourse. He hoped that with this measure, all the trammels that now interrupted the commerce between England and Ireland would end, and that full scope would be given to the exercise of the industry and energies of both countries. Ireland and Scotland should be considered as much a part of England, as Essex or Kent. He therefore gave his cordial approbation to measures, which equally tended to advance the interests of all parts of the united kingdom.

Mr. W. Smith opposed the measure, and said that it would, in his opinion, contribute more to the disadvantage of England, than any measure that could have been adopted. The immorality of the thing was beyond all question; for there was no necessity to enable a man to get drunk for a

shilling: he could do that easily enough already; and as to the proposition laid down by the right hon. gentleman, he considered it as fallacious, as if any one were mathematically to assert, that by adding unequals to equals the result would be equals. In the report on the Police of

the Metropolis in 1817, it appeared, from the most incontestible evidence, that almost every crime of the most atrocious character, such as murder, robbery, and burglary, was committed under the influence of ardent spirits. If this were so, he would ask whether that could possibly be a measure of good tendency which went to reduce the price of spirits, as he was satisfied it would be reduced, to little more than half the present amount ? But, it was said, that though the duty was to be reduced one-half, double the quantity of spirits would not be drunk, nor would the quantity drunk by the same individuals, be increased in any very great proportion. The right hon. gentleman, however, argued very differently when he proposed the reduction of the duty upon wine. He then talked with great confidence, of the increased quantity of wine which he hoped would be drunk; and, could he suppose that the reduction of the price of spirits would have a different effect on the lower classes of the people, than the reduction of the price of wine would have on the higher classes? It was said, that the Scotch were a sober people, notwithstanding the low price of spirits in Scotland. The fact was, that the poverty of the lower classes of the people in Scotland was a check upon their intemperance. Low as the price of ardent spirits was in that country, they could not afford to purchase them. He might remind the House of the reply of Dr. Johnson to a person who observed, that a man might buy a Solan goose in Scotland for two-pence. "Granted," said the doctor, "but where will he find the two-pence in Scotland?" He confessed that he apprehended serious results to the morality of the country from the reduction proposed by the right hon. gentleman. Whatever might be the effect of the measure, he had delivered his own soul. The right hon. gentleman had taken no means to encourage the brewers, and to turn the people from dram-drinking to the consumption of beer. He sincerely regretted that he should have proposed a measure, which was calculated to have so demoralizing an influence on the habits of the people.

Mr. Hume strongly recommended the Chancellor of the Exchequer to equalise, to a greater degree than he had proposed, the duties between England, Scotland, and Ireland, and also to reduce the duties on malt. He could not agree with the hon. member for Norwich, as to the

danger to be apprehended to the morals of the country, from the adoption of this measure. He begged his hon. friend to look to Holland and France, where the price of brandy and gin was half what it was in this country. Would he find in those countries such scenes of drunkenness and crime, as he apprehended from the low price of spirits? He believed, that in the countries where the price of spirits was highest, the greatest excesses took place. And this was easily accounted for: it was the disposition of man, when he could only obtain an indulgence occasionally, to get as much of it as he could; but, if circumstances enabled him to obtain the gratification regularly, the temptation to commit an excess was removed. He was satisfied, therefore, that the reduction of the duties on spirits, so far from operating as a temptation to intemperance, would only have the effect of enabling the lower classes of the people to indulge regularly and temperately, rather than irregularly and without moderation, in the use of spirits; and the moderate use of spirits he believed to be much more salutary and beneficial than it was commonly supposed to be. Besides the countries to which he had adverted, he would mention the United States of America, where, though the price of spirits was much lower than it would be in this country after the reduction of the duty, there was no disposition to intemperance among the people. Good wages and low prices were the best security for good conduct.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had felt great difficulty in determining what should be the amount of reduction of duty. He admitted that it would have been very desirable to approximate still further than he had proposed towards a complete equalization of duties. He should not have feared to reduce the duty in England still lower, if he had felt him self warranted in increasing the duty in Ireland and Scotland. If he had lowered the duty still further in England, the revenue would have suffered too much, if he had not increased the duty in Scotland and Ireland; and such an increase of duty, immediately after the success of the recent experiment, would have operated as a fresh encouragement to smuggling. As to the apprehensions of the hon. member for Norwich, that the country would be deluged with drunkenness, in consequence of the reduction of the duty on spirits, he thought that hon. member's

anxiety for the morals of the country had led him to take unnecessary alarm at this measure. He did not participate in those fears; and he thought the objections of the hon. member had been satisfactorily answered by the reference which the hon. member for Aberdeen, had made to the state of countries, in which the price of spirits was much lower than it would be in this country after the reduction of the duty. Mr. Hutchinson supported the resolution, and trusted the right hon. gentleman would adopt the suggestion of the hon. member for Aberdeen by reducing the duty on malt.

Captain Gordon thought the country greatly indebted to the right hon. gentle man, for a measure which was calculated to suppress illicit distillation in all parts of the empire.

The resolutions were agreed to.

BRITISH MUSEUM-MR. RICH'S COLLECTION.] The House having resolved itself into a committee of Supply,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer, adverting to the report of the committee appointed to consider the expediency of purchasing for the British Museum the collection of coins, antiquities, and manuscripts of the late Mr. Rich, observed, that that report was so explicit and satisfactory, that it was quite unnecessary for him to trouble the House with any details or arguments on the subject. Nor could it be necessary for him to impress upon the House how highly honourable it was to the country, to make every effort for the due cultivation of literature and the arts. The collection in question was one of undoubted value, and was declared by competent judges to be well worth the sum required for it. He would therefore move, "That a sum not exceeding 7,500l. be granted to his majesty, for the purchase of Mr. Rich's collection of manuscripts, antiquities and coins, to be placed in the British Museum, for the benefit of the public."

Mr. Hume cordially supported the motion. He said he would take the present opportunity of expressing his regret at the condition in which many of the valuable monuments in the country now were, and of asking the right hon. gentleman if he would have any objection to the appointment of a committee to inquire what was the state of the monuments which had been erected to the memory of our distinguished countrymen, where

they were placed, the expense that had been incurred in their erection, and how far they were at present accessible to the people? If the right hon. gentleman had no objection to such a proposition, he hoped that either he, or some other member of his majesty's government, would make it, in order that the public might know what was the result of the great expense on the subject which they had incurred. Among other things, he was informed, that the shillings which were collected at the doors of Wesminster Abbey went into the pockets of the persons who were appointed to take care of those monuments; but he also understood, that there was another fund from which those persons ought to be paid, and which the dean and chapter put into their own pockets. He thought this was a subject which should be inquired into.

Mr. Bankes admitted that the expense which the public were put to in the erection of those monuments gave them a fair claim to inquire how the funds received for exhibiting them were applied; but he thought the onus of such inquiry ought not to be thrown upon the chancellor of the Exchequer. The subject was, he granted, a fair one for inquiry.

Mr. Hume disclaimed the slightest imputation on the right hon. gentleman. All that he wished to know was, whether government would sanction the appointment of such a committee as he had alluded to; as otherwise, any proposition for its appointment would be nugatory.

Sir C. Long did not know any thing of the fund to which the right hon. member had alluded, as being provided for the care of the monuments in Westminster Abbey. He could assure the hon. gentleman that his majesty's government had no other wish on the subject, than that the public should have the full benefit of the money that had been expended upon it. As to the present vote, there could be no difference of opinion about the value of the collection which it was to secure; and he thought it but common justice to observe, that there had never been any collection offered to the trustees of the British Museum, in a more fair, liberal, and handsome manner.

The resolution was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, April 25.

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.] His

Royal Highness the Duke of York stated, that he had been requested to present to their lordships the petition of the dean and canons of Windsor, praying that no further concessions should be made to the Roman Catholics. He considered it unnecessary, in bringing before their lordships the petition of so learned and respectable a body, to assure them it was worded so as to ensure its reception; but, before he moved that it should be read he must be permitted to say a few words.

Sensible as his royal highness was of his want of habit and ability, to take a part in their lordships' debates, it was not without the greatest reluctance that he ventured to trespass upon their time and attention; but he felt that there were occasions when every man owed it to his country and to his station, to declare his sentiments; and no opportunity could, in his opinion, offer, which required more imperiously the frank avowal of them than the present, when their lordships were called upon to make a total change in the fundamental principle of the constitution, and, in his royal highness's view of the question, to strike at the very root of its existence.

His royal highness observed, that twenty-eight years had elapsed since this question had been first agitated, under the most awful circumstances, while this country was engaged in a most arduous and expensive, though just and glorious war; that the agitation of it had been the 'cause of a most serious and alarming illness to an illustrious personage now no more, whose exalted character and virtues, and whose parental affection for his people would render his memory ever dear to this country; that it had also produced the temporary retirement from his late majesty's councils of one of the most able, enlightened, and most honest statesmen of whom this country could boast. Upon this question they were now called to decide; and from the first moment of its agitation to the present, his royal highness said, he had not for one instant hesitated, or felt a doubt, as to the propriety of the line of conduct he had adopted in reference to it.

That he must also call their lordships' attention to the great change of language and sentiments which had taken place since the subject was first introduced, among the advocates for Catholic emancipation.

That at first the most zealous of these had cautiously and yet strenuously endeavoured to impress upon the minds of the people that Catholic emancipation ought not to be granted without establishing strong and effectual barriers against any encroachment on the Protestant ascendancy. But, how changed was now their language! Their lordships were now required to surrender every principle of the constitution, and to deliver us up, bound hand and foot, to the mercy and generosity of the Roman Catholics, without any assurance even that they would be satisfied with such fearful concessions.

His royal highness said, he had, upon a former occasion, taken the liberty of stating his sentiments fully upon the subject, and had endeavoured to convey to their lordships that no person was more decidedly inclined to toleration than his late majesty, but that it must be admitted there was a great difference between toleration, participation, and emancipation. He would not now enter into this discussion, convinced as he was that, if the bill should again be brought under their consideration, its merits would be much more ably discussed by others of their lordships. There were, however, one or two points which appeared to him to have been kept out of view in the different debates that had occurred in various places, and which seemed to him of such vital importance that he could not help touching upon them.

The first was, the situation in which the church of England would be placed should Catholic emancipation pass. If his royal highness were mistaken he would doubtless be set right; but, he had always understood that the established church of England stands in a very different situation from any other religious persuasion in the world; different even from that of the Sectarians in this country. The established church was subject to its own government, and did not admit the interference of the civil authorities. It was placed under the authority of the king as the head of it, and under the control of parliament, so much so, that the church was not only not represented as a body in the lower House of parliament, but no clergyman was admittted to a seat in it.

Surely, their lordships could not wish to place the established church of England upon a worse footing than any other church within these realms: nor allow the Roman Catholics, who not only refused

to submit to our rules, but who denied any authority of the civil power over their church, to legislate for the established church; which must be the case if they should be admitted to seats in either House of parliament.

The other point to which his royal highness had to advert, was one which he felt to be of a more delicate nature. He must, therefore, begin by stating to their lordships, that he spoke only his own individual sentiments; as he must not be supposed to utter in that House the sentiments of any other person. He was sensible that, by what he was about to say, he should subject himself to the scoffs and jeers of some, and to the animadversions of others; but, from speaking conscientiously his own feelings and sentiments, he would by no apprehension whatever be appalled or deterred.

That he wished to ask whether their lordships had considered the situation in which they might place the king, or whether they recollected the oath which his majesty had taken at the altar, to his people, upon his coronation. He begged to read the words of that oath :-"I will, to the utmost of my power, maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the gospel, and the Protestant reformed religion established by law-and I will preserve unto the bishops and clergy of this realm, and to the churches committed to their charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall appertain to them, or any of them."

Their lordships must remember, that ours is a Protestant king, who knows no mental reservation, and whose situation is different from that of any other person in this country. That his royal highness and every other individual in this country could be released from his oath by the authority of parliament; but the king could not. The oath, as he had always understood, was a solemn obligation entered into by the person who took it, from which no act of his own could release him; but the king was the third part of the state, without whose voluntary consent no act of the legislature could be valid, and he could not relieve himself from the obligation of an oath.

His royal highness said, he feared that he had already trespassed too long upon their lordships, and he thanked them for the patience with which they had heard him. If he had expressed himself too warmly, especially in the latter part of

what he had said, he must appeal to their liberality. That he felt the subject most forcibly; and that it affected him yet more deeply, when he remembered that to its agitation must be ascribed that severe illness, and ten years of misery, which had clouded the existence of his illustrious and beloved father. That he should therefore conclude with assuring their lordships, that he had uttered his honest and conscientious sentiments, founded upon principles which he had imbibed from his earliest youth; to the justice of which he had subscribed, after serious consideration, when be attained more mature years; and that these were the principles to which he would adhere, and which he would maintain and act up to, to the latest moment of his existence, whatever might be his situation of lifeSo help him God!

Ordered to lie on the table.

CORN LAWS.] The Marquis Camden presented a petition from several Landowners and Land-occupiers, against any alteration of the Corn Laws. The subject, he said, was one involving very important interests, and required that their lordships should proceed with great caution.

The Earl of Lauderdale, seeing the noble earl opposite in his place, rose to ask what were the intentions of his majesty's government on this subject? He did not mean to enter, in the smallest degree, into the general question; but he could assure their lordships, that there prevailed a great degree of agitation on the subject; and as long as the question was left open, numerous petitions would be sent to their lordships. Not only the agriculturists and the manufacturers were interested in it, but the monied men in the City, as every body must know who attended to the state of the exchanges, were affected by this question being kept open. He, therefore, hoped the noble earl would state whether his majesty's ministers meant to propose any alteration in the corn laws during the present session.

The Earl of Liverpool said, he had no objection to give as satisfactory an answer as possible, to the question of the noble earl. At the same time, he could not, consistently with the importance of the subject, and the duty which he owed to the public, answer the question of the noble earl without troubling their lordships with a few observations. Their lordships were aware, that the last time