Archbishop GUIDI. What I want to set forth is that the price is the same all the way through.

Governor TAFT. It is fair to give the witness an opportunity to explain the reason of his assessments.

Mr. McGREGOR. I would like to ask in what pueblo he ascertained the value of the lands around Imus.

Señor VILLEGAS. The first-class in San Francisco de Malabon; only the first-class. Mr. McGREGOR. Why did you not ascertain the value of that in the town of Imus? Señor VILLEGAS. The presidente and the officials and leading men whom I asked there gave me a very low price, which I did not believe was the just one.

Governor TAFT. Herewith we have the hacienda of Malinta, Tala, and Piedra in the province of Bulacan in the pueblo of Polo. Did you survey this hacienda? Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir.

Governor TAFT. Is it irrigated?

Señor VILLEGAS. Only that part that is first-class.

Governor TAFT. How is it irrigated?

Señor VILLEGAS. It is irrigated very little by dams or dikes.

Governor TAFT. Can they raise two crops on the first-class land?

With one crop a

Señor VILLEGAS. They do not; but it produces more than 100 cavanes. Governor TAFT. How does that compare with the production in Cavite? Señor VILLEGAS. The first-class is almost equal to that of Cavite. year they raise as much as with two crops in Cavite in Malinta on the first-class land. Governor TAFT. The hacienda of Malinta is given here as about 3,500 hectares and of this 3,500 hectares you place 650 hectares as first-class superior.

Señor VILLEGAS. First-class only.

Governor TAFT. At 200 pesos a hectare.

Señor VILLEGAS. Whatever it is stated there.

Governor TAFT. The second-class you state at 1,620 hectares, which you place at 150 pesos. How does the second-class differ from the first-class?

Señor VILLEGAS. It raises from 60 to 80 cavanes.

Governor TAFT. The third class you estimate at 180 hectares, at 100 pesos a hectare, and the remainder of 980 hectares you treat as uncultivated mountain land at $5 a hectare.

Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir.

Governor TAFT. What are the improvements on the Malinta estate?

Señor VILLEGAS. Little dikes.

Governor TAFT. Here is the hacienda of Santa Maria del Pandi. Did you survey the plans?

Señor VILLEGAS. I had it surveyed by my assistant; I was there investigating. Governor TAFT. Did you supervise the inspection?

Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir.

Governor TAFT. Is that an improved estate?

Señor VILLEGAS. It has small parts there that can be considered first class.

Governor TAFT. Is it well irrigated?

Señor VILLEGAS. It has some irrigation of very little importance.

Governor TAFT. That contains, according to your measurement, 12,069 hectares. Of that you place about 1,000 hectares as first class, at 200 pesos a hectare, and 1,500 second class. What will the first class produce?

Señor VILLEGAS. More than 100 cavanes.

Governor TAFT. Does it produce more than one crop?

Señor VILLEGAS. The land that is subject to irrigation there can raise two crops. Governor TAFT. How much will, on the average, the first-class land produce? Do you mean by first-class superior the class upon which two crops can be produced? Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir; about 100 cavanes.

Governor TAFT. As I understand the classification (I may be mistaken in this), you call first-class land that which produces above 80 cavanes, but if it produces two crops a year you call it first-class superior?

Señor VILLEGAS. I do not make any difference whether it produces more than one crop or not, but it is the annual production.

Governor TAFT. What is superior first class?

Señor VILLEGAS. Land of 100 cavanes, more or less.

Governor TAFT. What is that which you call first-class land?

Señor VILLEGAS. From 75 to 80 cavanes.

Governor TAFT. What is second class and third class?

Señor VILLEGAS. Second class produces 50 to 60 cavanes, and third class 30 to 50. Governor TAFT. What is fourth and fifth class land?

Señor VILLEGAS. Fourth class is 20 to 25 cavanes, and fifth class less than 20 cavanes. Governor TAFT. You make about half of this estate, about 2,025 hectares, worth

$25 a hectare. Why do you put it at $25 a hectare when you put uncultivated land in the mountains in other haciendas at only $5 a hectare?

Señor VILLEGAS. Because they are very clean and they could be easily cultivated. Archbishop GUIDI. I desire to call attention to the fact that in this estate, where there are very few improvements, the witness has put the first-class land at even more than he has in the other estates.

Governor TAFT. I would like to suggest an answer to it. I did not understand at first, and it shows the advantage of a constant discussion. I did not understand the theory on which Señor Villegas had gone in his estimate. But I think in answer to the suggestion now, I can offer an explanation which I derive from his statements. The theory of the witness, as I understand it, is that superior land—that is, that which produces 100 cavanes to the hectare, within reasonable reach of the marketis worth about 200 pesos a hectare. Now, it is said that because he estimates superior land on one estate at 200 pesos which is not improved, and superior land on another estate at 200 pesos which is improved, that thereby he shows that he gives no weight to improvements. The explanation is this, as I understand it, justifying the action of the witness: The Cavite estates, it is true, are all improved; the estate of Pandi has very little improvement. Now, he does not apply the same standard to the estates as estates. He varies the standard, not by varying the price of the superior land, but he varies it by making a very small classification in the Pandi estate of superior land. The advantage to the Cavite estates by reason of their improvements is in the very large amount; in Naic all that is improved at all is classified as superior first-class land. Therefore the variation in his estimates is shown in the total price of the hacienda divided by the number of hectares. In other words, he makes his variation by the classification to allow for the improvements, and not by changing the price of the superior land, the production of which is the same, whether it be by reason of improvements or by its fortunate location by natural waters. For instance, in this hacienda of Pandi, which consists of 12,000 hectares, only one-twelfth is superior land; in Naic three-sevenths. The entire cultivated land by reason of those improvements is classified as superior first-class lands. He has followed Señor Padre's view, that the product of the land determines its price and the product is increased by the improvements. The more improvements you have the greater proportion of your hacienda is made first-class land; and that is the way he allows, if I have understood his evidence, for the effect of the improvements.

Archbishop GUIDI. From all this we deduce the fact that the value of the land should be calculated upon the production as the basis of the valuation of it.

Governor TAFT. I have been explaining what I understand to be the theory of the witness in allowing for improvements. When it comes to stating the principle, it seems to me, with deference to his excellency, the principle should be stated this way: That land is worth, just as anything is worth, what it will bring, and that is the rule of law, the rule of evidence. But suppose you do not have a market, suppose land is not being sold, then you have got to take other means of finding what the value is. Land is planted and used agriculturally for the profit that is made out of it. Therefore when you go into the question of products you are furnishing a reason why a man ought to be willing to pay for that land in order that he may make the profit that the natural product will give him.

Archbishop GUIDI. It is the seller that makes the opportunity for selling and that makes rules whereby the sales should be made, and not the buyer. Governor TAFT. It is both the buyer and the seller.

Archbishop GUIDI. But the seller might say, "I will not sell."

Governor TAFT. If you depend on the wish of the seller alone you would never get any market reports at all. It is what the vendor and the buyer agree on. Both the seller and the buyer are affected by the profit to be gathered from the land. Actual sales are the best evidence because they evidence an agreement between the vendor and the buyer as to what the land is worth. If you get two opposite interests agreeing, then you have got the best standard.

Archbishop GUIDI. Certainly.

Governor TAFT. But in the absence of those agreements we have got to do the best

we can.

Mr. McGREGOR. We have records of sales.

Governor TAFT. Then bring them out. Here is the Toro estate of 58 hectares, estimated at 150 pesos a hectare. Is that an improved estate?

Señor VILLEGAS. No, sir; but it is good land.

Governor TAFT. Is it in rice?

Señor VILLEGAS. Yes; in a very good condition. I make it first-class land because it is very low and convenient and easily cultivated.

Governor TAFT. Here is Anget hacienda, 294 hectares, 260 hectares, at 125 pesos. Do you make any difference in the value between rice and sugar?

Señor VILLEGAS. No, sir.

Governor TAFT. Is this improved?

Señor VILLEGAS. It has no improvements, but it is land which produces a great deal by being low.

Archbishop GUIDI. How much does it produce?

Señor VILLEGAS. From 50 to 70 cavanes.

Señor GUTIERREZ. In one year, then, the produce will be more than the value of the land.

Governor TAFT. Does it produce more than one crop?

Señor VILLEGAS. One crop only.

Governor TAFT. There is no facility for irrigating so as to make it?

Señor VILLEGAS. No, sir.

Governor TAFT. How is it situated with reference to the market-to getting into Manila, for instance?

Señor VILLEGAS. You can go by the river San Rafael, but it is a long way.

Governor TAFT.

How far is it from Manila?

Señor VILLEGAS. Leaving there in a loaded boat, it would take at least two days to get to Manila.

Governor TAFT. It is passable, however, all the year around, isn't it?

Señor VILLEGAS. In the dry season you can not pass through.

Governor TAFT. Here is Dampol and Quingua, 962 hectares, one hacienda. What kind of a hacienda is that?

Señor VILLEGAS. It has rice and sugar; mostly sugar and very little rice.
Governor TAFT. Is that improved?

Señor VILLEGAS. No, sir.

Governor TAFT. What kind of land is it? How many cavanes does it produce? Señor VILLEGAS. Seventy to 80 cavanes; it is very low and flat.

Governor TAFT. Is that an advantage?

Señor VILLEGAS. They are conditions which cause land to be richer.

Governor TAFT. You estimate it at 150 pesos a hectare, and solares 60 hectares. What are solares?

Señor VILLEGAS. Building grounds.

Governor TAFT. You estimate them at 125 pesos a hectare. Is not that pretty small? Señor VILLEGAS. No, sir.

Governor TAFT. Is that near the the town of Quingua?

Señor VILLEGAS. It is the pueblo of Quingua?

Governor TAFT. Here are eight parcels of land situated in the towns of Quingua, Calumpit, Barasuain, Santa Ysabel, and Guiguinto, province of Bulacan. This is rice and sugar land, 10 hectares, at $150 a hectare. At Calumpit, 74 hectares, at $150 a hectare. At Barasuain, 54 hectares, at $154. Why did you make that $154 instead of $150.

Señor VILLEGAS. It is probably a mistake; it should be $150.

Governor TAFT. If you do not object, gentlemen, we will change it to $150. [Makes the correction on the map accordingly.] Now, Dakela and Santa Ysabel, are they the same kind of land?

Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir.

Governor TAFT. And Alangelang? That you estimate is superior. Why?

Señor VILLEGAS. Because it raises 100 cavanes, more or less.

Archbishop GUIDI. How much is a cavan worth on the market to-day?

Señor VILLEGAS. I did not calculate on to-day's prices, but when I made the valuation.

Governor TAFT. What was it worth when you made the valuation?

Señor VILLEGAS. One and one-half pesos; that was the price on the ground. I do not know what it was when brought to Manila. If a man needed money he would even take 50 cents.

Governor TAFT. Let us pass to Malapat, at 150 pesos a hectare. kind of land?

Señor VILLEGAS. The same as the others.

Is that the same

Governor TAFT. Here is the Recoleto hacienda, 456 hectares. What kind of land is that?

Señor VILLEGAS. The class that is mentioned there; 150 pesos.

Governor TAFT. Did you survey the Lolomboy hacienda?

Señor VILLEGAS. I measured the part which is in the pueblo of Polo-two parcels. Governor TAFT. What is it, rich land?

Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir; that in Polo is.

Governor TAFT. Take this part that is in Malanday. You have marked it all rice land. What kind of rice land is it?

WAR 1903-VOL 5--11

Señor VILLEGAS. It produces 75 to 80 cavanes.

Governor TAFT. These 65 hectares in Pasolo, within the town of Polo. What kind of rice land is that?

Señor VILLEGAS. The same as the other.

Governor TAFT. What does it produce?

Señor VILLEGAS. Palay; 70 to 80 cavanes.

Governor TAFT. And you put the price at $150. Is there any other land in Bulacan than that which we have gone over which produces 100 cavanes a year, not church property?

Señor VILLEGAS. Yes, sir; there are other lands.

Governor TAFT. Do you know whether there are any sales of that land?

Señor VILLEGAS. I can not state.

Friar MARTIN. I would like to know if the Governor is in accord with the testimony of Señor Villegas, and wherein you agree with his testimony.

Governor TAFT. I do not know; I have no means, except through Señor Villegas and other witnesses whom I call, of knowing what the value of the land is. I would like to say, generally, this: That land like this, much of which has lain fallow for four or five years during the disturbed condition of the country, land that can not now be worked to advantage because of the absence of draft animals, land that lies in a country where agriculture is so depressed, it seems to must necessarily be lower in value than it was in 1896, or before that time. Another thing, were this land offered to the public, to capitalists, I venture to say that there are few capitalists that would go into it. On the other hand, I do not consider that it is the duty of myself, representing the Government, or of the Commission, representing the Government, to squeeze down the price on the theory that the land can not be used by you at all, practically. What we desire to do is to get a just price. We think if we give you a resonable price-reasonable not in the sense of what, if you were obliged to sell, you could get from capitalists in the market, but a reasonable price, excluding certain considerations that we are willing to exclude that we are buying ourselves a lawsuit that will occupy us for a good many years, and that we are relieving you from a great number of lawsuits that would occupy you for a great many years, it is as much as you can expect of us. We know we are going to have a great deal of trouble after we get the land, and yet we think that the trouble will be less if we buy it from you, and we are entirely willing to pay what is a fair price. But, on the other hand, I beg of you to consider that my constituents are not the people of the United States, they are the people of the Philippine Islands, and in doing justice to them I must avoid loading them with a burden, so far as I can, which would be too heavy for them to bear; and if we can not agree on a price that seems to me reasonable, my hands are tied, I must then let the thing work itself out the best way it can. But I think if we both yield some we can come to an agreement. When we make the agreement, if we reach it, it may take two or three months to get the money, but we will pay in gold. What I would like to propose, unless I am told that it will do no good, after we get all through the evidence that there is here and after I have added up to see what it all comes to, is to make a lump proposition in gold and then let you gentlemen, if you can, arrange the divisions among yourselves. Friar MARTIN. That is impossible.

Señor GUTIERREZ. It is impossible because they are opposing interests.
Archbishop GUIDI. You can set a price for each corporation.

Governor TAFT. It would be easier to make it a lump sum, but I can possibly arrange it in some other way. I do not know whether the Señor Padre wished to invite that statement, but that is what I thought he wished me to discuss.

Friar MARTIN. Those observations were probably well taken, but I have some objection to make to those statements of yours.

For

Governor TAFT. With reference to the estimates of Señor Villegas, I do not care to be bound by them. What I mean is, I might differ from Señor Villegas. instance, I might think that his estimate on certain land is too low. I might think, again, that the including in the estimate at all of the value of dams and that kind of thing was an error; but what I am groping for-and I think it is the case with his excellency, too-is light. I simply employed Señor Villegas because I understood that he had experience. I did not tell him anything to do except to go and make a survey and make an estimate on the land, and these are the results.

Friar MARTIN. In the first place, without considering the price, I desire to know if you are satisfied with the measurement and the classification of Señor Villegas. Governor TAFT. I have no other information on the subject.

Friar MARTIN. If you are not in accord with this, then it will be necessary to measure them over again.

Governor TAFT. I do not intend to bring any other evidence here at all on that subject, and if you agree with this measurement then I agree.

Friar MARTIN. I agree.

Señor GUTIERREZ. I desire to remark that from the hacienda of Lolomboy they have taken away a thousand and some odd hectares. Surely it must be an error.

Governor TAFT. Isn't it in this way: Isn't it the fact that the hacienda of Lolomboy is surveyed in two different books?

Mr. McGREGOR. Yes; in the total, but not in the division of the land. He has given us third-class land and no one else third-class land, and it strikes me that there is third-class land on the other haciendas, I have no doubt.

Governor TAFT. Señor Gutierrez, here is a parcel of Lolomboy, 106 hectares and 65 hectares; that is 171 hectares. Then there is 4,158 hectares.

Señor GUTIERREZ. I have 5,444, and according to this there is 4,329.

Governor TAFT. All I can say about that is that the surveyor is not here, but I will have him here.

Señor GUTIERREZ. I wished simply to call attention to the fact that there is a difference, and that difference can be settled, the land being all there.

Friar MARTIN. When you examined the lands belonging to the corporation which I represent, the lands which you have put as cultivated, did you see yourself that they were?

Señor VILLEGAS. All that I have put as to the classification and the surface area is just as I have found it.

Governor TAFT. Do I understand the Señor Padre to agree to his survey and classification?

Friar MARTIN. It is a very small difference, more or less. I desire to state that all the lands that are called cultivated-I know they were cultivated last year when I examined them.

Governor TAFT. That is what I understand to be the fact.

Friar MARTIN. So that the production is calculated on the part that is cultivated. Do you accept the production which Señor Villegas gives as that of these lands? Governor TAFT. I do. I have no other data.

Mr. McGREGOR. I would like to ask Señor Villegas why he has omitted, in valuing the Imus property, to mention anything about the coffee lands.

Señor VILLEGAS. I have seen no coffee growing there.

Mr. McGREGOR. There is a considerable area of coffee in sight of the hills, where I have not been able to get to.

Señor VILLEGAS. Perhaps the coffee trees have died.

Mr. MCGREGOR. I have not seen them myself, but I know they are there.

Señor VILLEGAS. I have considered all that part that I could not see cultivated as uncultivated, and so classified it.

Mr. McGREGOR. You can hardly take coffee land as uncultivated land, although it may have been allowed to grow to jungle.

Adjourned until March 6, 1903.

Continued from March 2, 1903.

MALACAÑAN PALACE, Manila, March 9, 1903.

Friar MARTIN. By the reading of the copies of the three conferences I received last week, I have seen that the object of these conferences is the valuation of the friars' lands. If that be true, I can not intervene in such a business, because I have not a power of attorney from any of the religious orders to represent them here. Governor TAFT. You do not bind anybody by being here.

Friar MARTIN. On the other hand, I must say that from what I know and from what I have heard from my friends, Mr. McGregor and Señor Gutierrez, all the estates, object of the past conferences, do not belong to the friars. It is true that they possessed them formerly, but it is also true that at present these estates belong to one of these three companies: Philippine Sugar, British Manila, and Compañía Agrícola de Ultramar. This last I represent, and I am the chief agent of it in these islands. My representation in these conferences is the representation of the Compañía Agrícola de Ultramar, from which I have received a power of attorney in order to administrate or sell lands belonging to it. I have no other representation here. I would like to call the attention of the governor to some other points, but I prefer leaving it for the time when we have discussed everything relating to the haciendas, in order to get more exact information of what was expressed in the three conferences referred to.

Governor TAFT. It makes no difference in what capacity you come, I am delighted to see you here, and your knowledge of the conditions will doubtless assist us in getting to some basis with reference to the valuation of lands; but whatever you say or do in this matter won't bind anybody, whomever you represent or do not represent. The same is true of Señor Gutierrez, who represents the Philippine Sugar, and Mr. McGregor, who represents the British Manila estates. When we closed