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Mr. BUTCHER. Can the right honorable gentleman refer to any authority which tells us that in ordinary cases the burden of proof in such matters is not on the captor but upon the owner of the captured boat?

SIR E. GREY. I am informed that has been the case in the Russian courts, and even in our own prize courts.

Mr. BUTCHER. Is there any authoritative statement on the subject in any book?

SIR E. GREY. Of course, the important thing in these matters is the practice of the prize courts. We find that the practice of the Russian prize courts and the British prize courts is what I have said, and that is a strong indication of what the rule is.

APRIL 10, 1911.1

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether article 34 of the Declaration of London was based on the second and ninth paragraphs of article 18 of the German Admiralty draft, as on page 5 of the Blue Book Cd. 4555,· 1909.

The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. McKinnon Wood). The text of the Declaration and the draft proposals of the German Government are set out in full in the Blue Book to which the noble lord refers. He is able to compare them for himself. Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart asked whether the translation, in French, of article 18 of the German draft of the Declaration of London, as published in Blue Book, Cd. 4555, 1909, page 5, is at literal translation of the German; and whether the German draft was submitted by the German Admiralty to the British Foreign Office prior to the conference of London, 1908.

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD. If the noble lord will consult the Blue Book (Command No. 4554), he will find, on reference to page 13, that the draft was communicated to the Foreign Office by the German chargé d'affaires on 21st August, 1908. The German text was accompanied by a French translation prepared by the German Government themselves, and it is this translation which was laid before the conference.

Lord Ninian Crichton-Stuart asked whether article 33 of the Declaration of London was based upon the first paragraph of article 18 of the German draft of the Declaration of London.

124 H. C. Deb., 5 s.. 8.

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD. I do not know what the noble lord means by the German draft of the Declaration of London. I have never heard of the existence of such a document.

Mr. George Terrel1 asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the differences of opinion which have been expressed on both sides of the House in regard to the Declaration of London he will arrange that the division as to its ratification will be conducted on nonparty lines.

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith). I can not give any pledge in regard to this at present.

Mr. BUTCHER. Will the right honorable gentleman undertake that the party whips shall not be put on for this division?

The PRIME MINISTER. I have nothing to add to the answer to the question.

MAY 1, 1911.'

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Mr. Butcher asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to a statement by Lord Desart, on 13th March last, in which, referring to the general report of the drafting committee to the recent naval conference, generally known as M. Renault's report, and so referred to in the letter of the British delegates to Sir Edward Grey of 1st March, 1909, Lord Desart stated that this report would, according to the practice of continental courts, be accepted as an authoritative commentary, but in English and American courts such a document might not be accepted as authoritative; and whether, in view of this statement by His Majesty's plenipotentiary at the naval conference, the Government still adhere to the view that the report in question must be accepted by the English and American courts as an authoritative interpretation of the text of the Declaration of London.

Mr. ILLINGWORTH. I must once more point out to the honorable member that it is misleading to describe the report of the drafting committee of the naval conference as Monsieur Renault's report, and that it is not, so far as I am aware, generally known as such. My attention has been called to the statement by the Earl of Desart which is quoted in the honorable member's question, but I shall be glad if he will give me notice of the precise words to which he refers as indicating the view of His Majesty's Government, and also the occasion when they were used.

Mr. BUTCHER. Is the honorable gentleman aware that the report of the drafting committee is referred to in a letter of the British 225 H. C. Deb., 5 s., 7. 3 Cf. supra, p. 108.

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delegates to Sir Edward Grey of 1st March, 1909, as Mr. Renault's general report?

Mr. ILLINGWORTH. No. I will ascertain for the information of the honorable gentleman.

MAY 4, 1911.1

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Captain Faber2 asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that the United States naval authorities had declared that the Declaration of London was thoroughly unfavourable to Britain, he would allow the bill to be non-controversial when it came before this House.

The PRIME MINISTER. I have no knowledge of the statement referred to, but I fail to understand why such a statement, if made, should render the naval prize court bill non-controversial.

Captain FABER. Has not the right honorable gentleman seen or heard of the great naval authority in the United States who has issued a pamphlet on this subject?

The PRIME MINISTER. No; I have not.

Captain FABER. Will the right honorable gentleman inquire?

MAY 8, 1911.3

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Mr. Butcher asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether his attention had been drawn to a statement by Lord Desart, on 13th March last, in which, referring to the general report of the drafting committee to the recent naval conference, generally known as M. Renault's report, and so referred to in the letter of the British delegates to Sir Edward Grey of 1st March, 1909, Lord Desart stated that this report would, according to the practice of continental courts, be accepted as an authoritative commentary, but in English and American courts such a document might not be accepted as authoritative; whether His Majesty's Government agreed with this statement of Lord Desart; or whether they considered that the report in question must be accepted by the English and American courts as an authoritative interpretation of the text of the Declaration of London. The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. McKinnon Wood). The question asked by the honorable and learned member is the same as the question he asked last Monday, with a slight difference of phraseology. The honorable and learned member is

125 H. C. Deb., 5 s., 590.

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325 H. C. Deb., 5 s., 820.

again asking me to discuss matters of argument and opinion which, I venture to think, are not suitably dealt with at question time. The honorable and learned member will have full opportunity for raising any such question he desires to raise when the matter is debated in the House.

Mr. BUTCHER. Does His Majesty's Government agree with the statement by Lord Desart, mentioned in the question?

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD. That again is a matter of argument. I do not think the statement quoted by the honorable and learned member represents very accurately the views of Lord Desart. I am not aware that there is any difference of opinion between His Majesty's Government and Lord Desart on the question.

Mr. ARTHUR LEE. How soon are we likely to have an opportunity of discussing the matter in the House?

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD. I am afraid I can not reply to that.

MAY 22, 1911.1

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Captain Faber asked (1) whether the naval Lords of the Admiralty now approve of the ratification of the Declaration of London; and (2) whether the naval lords were, or were not, given a voice in the matter of The Hague Conference before Sir Edward Fry consented to the Declaration of London.

Mr. MCKENNA. It would be contrary to practice to refer to the action of individual members of the board in matters upon which the board has come to a conclusion. I would point out, however, that Sir Edward Fry was not concerned with the Declaration of London of 1909, but only with The Hague Conference of 1907.

Mr. LEE. Is it the case that the board, as a board, have come to a definite conclusion with regard to the Declaration of London? Mr. MCKENNA. Yes; certainly, the board have come to a conclusion.

Mr. LEE. Has the fully constituted board, as distinguished from the technical board, composed of the First Lord of the Admiralty and one other member?

Mr. MCKENNA. There is no distinction between the full board and the technical board. All questions do not necessarily go before the full board at all times, but documents and matters of detail, when a member of the board wishes, go before the whole board. All papers, as the honorable gentleman knows, are ordinarily dealt with under the minute laid down by the First Lord of the Admiralty and by the naval lord concerned in the particular branch of business.

126 H. C. Deb., 5 s., 4.

Mr. LEE. That means that it is not dealt with at a full board meeting?

Mr. MCKENNA. From memory I could not say.

MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY.1 May I ask whether the full board do approve of the Declaration of London?

Mr. MCKENNA. The board have approved of the Declaration of London.

MAJOR ANSTRUTHER-GRAY. Not the full board?

Mr. MCKENNA. We do not distinguish. If the honourable gentleman by "full board" means whether every member of the board has agreed, it would be contrary to the public interest to state what the opinion of individual members of the board may be, and I do not know what they may be, but the members of the board, as a board, have agreed.

MAY 24, 1911."

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Captain Faber asked the Prime Minister if he will state how many chambers of commerce have up to the present condemned the Declaration of London; and how many have pronounced in favor of it.

The UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. McKinnon Wood). I am not in a position to give the information desired. I may, however, say that 40 chambers have forwarded to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs resolutions criticising or objecting to various points in the Declaration.

CAPTAIN FABER. Have any chambers sent resolutions in favor of the Declaration, and, if so, how many?

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD. I am not able to tell the honorable member. There are one or two.

CAPTAIN FABER. Will that be represented to the colonial premiers at the conference which is now sitting?

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD. I think the facts are sufficiently notorious without making any representations.

MAY 30, 1911.3

DECLARATION OF LONDON.

Mr. Hunt asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention had been called to the great protest made by the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom against the ratifi

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326 H. C. Deb., 5 s., 880.

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