The CHAIRMAN. When you met those three men down at the head- ́ quarters, did you, with anyone of them, discuss the reasons for your resignation?

Mr. BOSSERT. I can't recall that I did. All I can recall is the conversation and the statements I made to you.

The CHAIRMAN. What were you talking about? Well, first, how long were you and Smith and Huffington down there at the headquarters that day?

Mr. BOSSERT. They were there when I got there.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. How long were you there with them? Mr. BOSSERT. Oh, I was not with them very long.

The CHAIRMAN. About how long?

Mr. BOSSERT. Oh, they were there all day.

The CHAIRMAN. About how long were you with them? I did not ask if they were there all day.

Mr. BOSSERT. I was not with them that long-all day.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to say that I want to be pleasant about this thing. You are a lawyer.

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes; I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. You know what a question is, and you know how

to answer?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us stick to it. Now, how long were you there that morning in this headquarters?

Mr. BOSSERT. They were there all day.

The CHAIRMAN. I asked you how long you were with them. Now. you answer; you will answer to me. You can't hold over.

Mr. BOSSERT. Let me get that quesction.

The CHAIRMAN. How long were you in the headquarters with these three men that day?

Mr. BOSSERT. They were in and out of that office all day long. The CHAIRMAN. How long? I asked you how long you were there. Mr. BOSSERT. I could not say.

The CHAIRMAN. How much time did you spend talking with any one of them that day?

Mr. BOSSERT. I talked to them off and on.

The CHAIRMAN. What were you talking about-everything you were talking about?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What was it?

Mr. BOSSERT. Well, we discussed-

The CHAIRMAN. I do not like to be unpleasant to you-you seem I am going to tell you something, that it is harder to get you right up to an answer than any witness I ever saw.

Mr. BOSSERT. Thank you for the compliment.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not a compliment. It is not intended as a

compliment.

Mr. BOSSERT. We discussed everything-discussed the klan policies.

he was selected, and it was then a question of the future of the

organization.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you discuss why you were going out?
Mr. BOSSERT. I may have discussed it with him, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you discuss the question that you were being practically forced out because you would not support Senator Watson and because you would not put the klan into politics for particular men?

Mr. BOSSERT. I think I told you in my Chicago examination that had always been my policy; that it was my policy at the Washington meeting.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not ask you what you said in Chicago; I am asking you now?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir; that was my

The CHAIRMAN. Did you discuss that?

Mr. BOSSERT. That was my policy, and I would not put it in politics.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. So, then, the outcome of it is that you did-you and Mr. Smith did-discuss the question of your policy there, to adhere to the advocacy of principles and not to advocate particular men, and for that reason your resignation was going in?

Mr. BOSSERT. I do not say that I came to any conclusion of that kind, or that I came to any conclusion on that question. I discussed with him the policy that I had pursued in the past and that he was also to pursue the old policy in the future, and the whys and the wherefores.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, the whys and wherefores; that is just what I want to get.

Mr. BOSSERT. As I told you before, I believed in principles; I believed this organization stood for principles; it should advocate principles instead of men.

The CHAIRMAN. That was your why?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And what were the wherefores?

Mr. BOSSERT. The what?

The CHAIRMAN. The whys and wherefores? Wherefore were you going to get out?

Mr. BOSSERT. I made up my mind in September to get out.
The CHAIRMAN. To get out for what reason?

Mr. BOSSERT. I told you that it had been the policy from the time that Mr. Stephenson-when he took over office for him to support men. I believed that this organization was built on principles.

The CHAIRMAN. And Mr. Evans was asking you to support men, was he not?

Mr. BOSSERT. I never discussed it with Evans.

The CHAIRMAN. With whom did you?

Mr. BOSSERT. Mr. Zumbrunn.

The CHAIRMAN. You know that you discussed that with Zumbrunn. Is Zumbrunn the alter ego of Evans?

Mr. BOSSERT. I do not know. He has always handled the political policies.

The CHAIRMAN. So Zumbrunn, then, discussed it with you?
Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Discussed the question of supporting men instead of measures and principles?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What men did Zumbrunn want you to support? Mr. BOSSERT. Well, he has asked me to support a great many men. The CHAIRMAN. What men for the United States Senate? Let us keep within the limits of some reason here. I do not care whom he wanted for constable.

Mr. BOSSERT. He was always favorable to Senator Watson.

The CHAIRMAN. He was urging you to support Watson, was he

not?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you declined to support Watson or any other particular man?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Out of that grew the controversy that resulted in your resignation; now, that is the God's truth about it, is it not? Mr. BOSSERT. As I said before, I resigned in September.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that the real truth of the reason for your resignation, that Zumbrunn, who was running the politics, insisted on changing the policy from supporting principles to supporting men, and the man was James E. Watson in this particular instance? Mr. BOSSERT. Exactly, and

The CHAIRMAN. Now, is not that the truth? You can answer

yes or no.

Mr. BOSSERT. I could not.

The CHAIRMAN. Answer it, then, in your own rigamarole.

Mr. BOSSERT. All right; I will do that. I handed in my resignation. I heard in Indiana that it was wanted

The CHAIRMAN. I heard about that.

Mr. BOSSERT. All right; that is what I want you to get and he accepted it. Now, the wherefore, I think he should answer that

himself.

The CHAIRMAN. Who?

Mr. BOSSERT. Mr. Zumbrunn.

The CHAIRMAN. He is not here.

Mr. BOSSERT. Or Doctor Evans.

The CHAIRMAN. He is not here, but is not this true, now, just the God Almighty truth under oath, that you were opposed to supporting Watson or any other particular man through the klan influence? Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, controlling the klan?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That Mr. Zumbrunn wanted the klan's influence to be thrown to Watson?

Mr. BOSSERT. He was favorable to Watson.

The CHAIRMAN. And he wanted the klan influence thrown there? He wanted you to abandon your policy of fighting for principle and

to fight for a particular man; is not that the truth?

Mr. BOSSERT. He was favorable to Senator Watson; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And, accordingly, the controversy grew so warm and so unpleasant that you resigned both of your jobs and both of

your salaries?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes. I could not say "both of my salaries."

The CHAIRMAN. All right; you resigned both of your jobs and your salary?

Mr. BOSSERT. Well, I resigned my jobs; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And your salary?

Mr. BOSSERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your salary?

Mr. BOSSERT. It varied at times.

The CHAIRMAN. What was it at this time?

Mr. BOSSERT. I do not recall; I think in the neighborhood of nine to ten thousand dollars a year and expenses.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever see Watson over at those headquarters?

Mr. BOSSERT. I never did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever know of his being there?

Mr. BOSSERT. I never knew of him being there; no, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN L. DUVALL

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. Please give the reporter your full name.
Mr. DUVALL. John L. Duvall.

The CHAIRMAN. You are the mayor of Indianapolis?
Mr. DUVALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you held that position?
Mr. DUVALL. Since the 1st of January, 1926.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been sitting in the room and you have probably heard some reference to a trip that was made to Washington some time early in 1926 or late in 1925. You have heard that testimony?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You made such a trip?

Mr. DUVALL. I made one trip; I think in December, 1925.

The CHAIRMAN. Late or early in December?

Mr. DUVALL. I think it was around the holidays, late in December.

The CHAIRMAN. Who accompanied you on that trip?

Mr. DUVALL. I went alone.

The CHAIRMAN. Well

Mr. DUVALL. I went to the station alone, and on the train was Walter Bossert.

The CHAIRMAN. And you and Mr. Bossert made the trip together, then?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes, sir; but we did not

The CHAIRMAN. From there on?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did Bossert get on the train?

Mr. DUVALL. I do not know. I think at Indianapolis.

The CHAIRMAN. And you got on at Indianapolis?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes: but he was in the train when I got in.
The CHAIRMAN. You two gentlemen went there together?
Mr. DUVALL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Did any other citizens of Indianapolis meet you gentlemen in Washington when you arrived there? I do not mean meet you at the station. Did you meet them somewhere?

Mr. DUVALL. At Washington, we went to some headquarters there; some office-I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. What building was it in?

Mr. DUVALL. I do not remember the building; I know it was on a

corner.

The CHAIRMAN. You understood what office it was?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes: I think it was Mr. Evans's office. That would I did not ask.

be a guess.

The CHAIRMAN. The headquarters of the Klu-Klux Klan? You understood that, did you not?

Mr. DUVALL. I was not told that. That was my feeling that that is what it was.

The CHAIRMAN. That is your feeling yet, is it not, Mayor?

Mr. DUVALL. I suppose so.

The CHAIRMAN. Whom did you see down there at headquarters? Mr. DUVALL. At the headquarters was Doctor Evans; and Mr. Bossert and Mr. Males, of Evansville, were there, and Mr. Huffington and several other men.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me see if I get the names right here. Mr. Males was there, the mayor of Evansville?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes; Mr. Males.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Huffington was there?

Mr. DUVALL. Mr. Huffington was there.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. W. Lee Smith was there, was he?

Mr. DUVALL. I did not see him.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not see him. Mr. McNay was there?

Mr. DUVALL. Mr. McNay.

The CHAIRMAN. And you were there, and who else?

Mr. DUVALL. That was all that I knew personally; there were several others other gentlemen there.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Mr. Bossert down there?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes; Mr. Bossert was there.

The frankly what took place.

Let's you and I get along here like a couple of gentlemen.

Mr. DUVALL. Senator, I have heard you call it a committee. As

I know that I did not, when we were asked to come down there.

for.

was

that certain of them drew funds from the Klu-Klux Klan treasury to make that trip. I therefore called them a committee. But you say you were not in that committee?

Mr. DUVALL. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You were not in on the money end of it. That is, your expenses were not paid by the klan?

Mr. DUVALL. I paid my fare, and then afterwards it was reim

bursed to

me.

The CHAIRMAN. Who reimbursed you?

Mr. DUVALL. I think that came through the regular channels-a

check.

The CHAIRMAN. Of the klan. By whom, the city of Indianapolis, or from the Ku-Klux Klan?

Mr. DUVALL. No; it was not from the city. It was from a part of the organization; I don't know where. Right from the klan.