The drys are backing up their campaign by the idea that there is an enormous liquor fund somewhere in the United States which is supporting our propaganda. There may have been liquor interests 15 years ago. The only liquor interests now in existence are the bootleg interests, and those interests owe their existence to the AntiSaloon League. They do not contribute to our funds. We have to depend upon contributions of liberal minded citizens. If there is any other question you would like me to answer, Senator, I will try to answer.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Thiele, it was broadly charged here from the witness stand by Mr. Scott McBride that the liquor interests had raised a large fund and were using a large fund to fight prohibition. You have partly answered the question by saying that there was no liquor interest, as you understood it, except the bootleg interest. Do you know of any fund that is being raised in Illinois to fight prohibition except the funds that are being raised through your organization?

Mr. THIELE. Our organization is the only organization of this character; and the money that I have accounted for is the only money I know anything of. Within the last three months one or two new organizations have started, and my understanding is that their income is extremely limited; but I could not of my own knowledge, say anything as to their finances.

The CHAIRMAN. What are their names?

Mr. THIELE. One is the Liberal Temperance League, which was started by John P. Hart about three or four months ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Is he a resident of Chicago?

Mr. THIELE. He is a resident of Aurora, but the league's office is in Chicago.

The CHAIRMAN. Can he be found here, do you think?

Mr. THIELE. I think he is on an election tour through Illinois; but of that I am not certain.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is his office here?

Mr. THIELE. I think it is in the Reaper block.

The CHAIRMAN. What block?

Mr. THIELE. Reaper.

The CHAIRMAN. What other organization?

Mr. THIELE. There is an Anti-Volstead League, which I take to be a sort of appendage to the Democratic campaign. The object of that league is principally to gather a mailing list for political use. It is a temporary arrangement, I think.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is at the head of that?

Mr. THIELE. Mr. Simon O'Donnell, I think.
The CHAIRMAN. Samuel O'Donnell?

Mr. THIELE. Simon O'Donnell.

The CHAIRMAN. Where can he be found?
Mr. THIELE. At the Sherman House.

The CHAIRMAN. Then I understand you to repudiate and deny the statement that the liquor interests have raised large sums of money for the purpose of controlling this election for United States Senator.

Mr. THIELE. I know of no money contributed by the so-called Jiquor interests, as we formerly understood that to mean, namely,

the breweries, distilleries, etc. In fact, the breweries are nearly all out of business. Here in Chicago the majority of the breweries, I believe, have been sold to bootleg interests for a trifle of their cost. A few are operating as soft-dring establishments. The United States Brewers' Association, so far as I know, still maintains an office in New York, but it has only a very small membership and merely maintains a library and a secretary. It has no money, so far as I can find out, to expend for any political purposes. I do not think there is in the whole United States any fund of any kind to which the liquor interests are contributors to any extent whatsoever. Here and there there may be a former brewer who contributes $100 or a few hundred dollars to campaigns, but there is no organized effort on the part of the liquor interests.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a list of subscribers!

Mr. THIELE. I have, scattered through my office, lists amounting to perhaps three or four thousand names, mostly running from $1 up. The CHAIRMAN. What is your largest subscription?

Mr. THIELE. One hundred dollars is considered a very large subscription in my office.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all, sir. I think, in view of this testimony, I will not have to recall Mr. Plamondon, except that I will ask you, Mr. Plamondon, you having heard this testimony, if, so far as you are acquainted with the facts, you agree with the statement made by the witness who is about to leave the stand? Mr. PLAMONDON. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. That will shorten matters up. That is all, then, and you are both excused, unless there is a representative of the AntiSaloon League here who wants to question these gentlemen. If so, I will give him carte blanche. I have tried to cover the case, but if there is any representative of that organization who thinks I have not I want to afford him the fullest opportunity now to inquire. There seems to be nobody here, so that is all, then, gentlemen. Is Senator Hay here?

Mr. HAY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Come forward, please, sir.

TESTIMONY OF LOGAN HAY

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. Please state your full name, your place of residence, and your occupation or profession.

Mr. HAY. My name is Logan Hay. I live in Springfield, Ill., and I am a lawyer by profession.

The CHAIRMAN. You were once a member of the Illinois Senate, and perhaps you are to-day; I do not know.

Mr HAY. I was a member of the Illinois State Senate from 1907 to 1915, two terms.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you had any connection with the campaign. of Mr. Magill for the United States Senate?

Mr. HAY. I have had some connection with his campaign; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Will you please state what that connection is, briefly? I do not care for a lot of detail.

Mr. HAY. Perhaps a week before Mr. Magill became a candidate for the United States Senate I was in several consultations with reference to his becoming a candidate and with reference to the conduct of his campaign.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you know about the raising of money for that campaign or the consultations which took place regarding the raising of money?

Mr. HAY. It was recognized from the start that in the present situation it would be a boomerang to raise a large campaign fund to promote Senator Magill's campaign; and it was recognized that the campaign expenditures should be kept to the lowest possible limit, and a maxim of $25,000 was established as the amount to be expended on the campaign, provided the expenditures could not be kept below that amount. I participated in one or more conferences at which Mr. Julius Rosenwald and others were present, at which this policy was established. The question then arose as to where the campaign fund would come from. Mr. Rosenwald said that he could not be relied on to contribute more than $5,000, and it was said that various other individuals would contribute-were interested in the campaign and would contribute. Mr. Dummer agreed to contribute $1,000, and I agreed to contribute $1,000. After the campaign had gotten under way it was necessary to lay out some plan of campaign and to incur some expenditures, and to plan as to where the money would come from for future expenditures. At that time I undertook to underwrite a further amount of $4,000, provided the campaign expenses did not exceed $25,000, and provided that amount was not received from other sources.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean provided the $25,000 was not raised from other sources, or provided that the amount necessary to be raised had not been raised from other sources?

Mr. HAY. I mean subject to both provisions; that is, subject to the provision that the campaign expenses should not exceed $25,000, and subject to the further provision that the expenses were not received from other sources than my additional underwriting of $4,000,

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any plans having been made by Mr. Magill, or those who were supporting him, to raise three or four hundred thousand dollars?

Mr. HAY. No; I know of no such amount, except as it was reported through the Anti-Saloon League-directly or indirectly through them.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the first you heard of it?

Mr. HAY. That was the first I heard of it.

The CHAIRMAN. And up to date, if you know, how much money has been collected?

I

Mr. HAY. I am not familiar with the exact amount raised. understood it was between seventeen and twenty thousand dollars— perhaps it is between sixteen and twenty.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you gentlemen, any of you, enter into this election program-or did Mr. Magill-for the purpose of injuring the dry cause?

Mr. HAY. No. I may state that what interested me in the campaign was this. I have had a little experience in politics. I am a

Republican, a regular Republican. I am, however, actively practicing law, and what shocked me was the impeachment of Judge English of the Federal Court and the following developments of the senatorial investigation, showing that Mr. Frank Smith, who occupied an office of quasi-judicial character, had accepted for his campaign fund something over $150,000. It seemed to me that those things indicated that the corruption which had existed in the various branches of the government of Illinois was now creeping into the judicial and semijudicial offices, and that shocked me as a practicing lawyer.

The CHAIRMAN. You spoke of him having received over $150,000. Was it the amount of the fund, or the sources from which it came, or both, that impressed you?

Mr. HAY. It was rather the fact that a man in judicial office should receive any considerable sums from the litigants before him, directly or indirectly. As I say, I approached it from the standpoint of a practicing lawyer.

The CHAIRMAN. So you say, then, that so far as you know there is no truth whatever in the charge that Magill, or those associated with him or promoting his campaign, contemplated the raising of, or have raised, a fund of three or four hundred thousand dollars, or any similar amount. You say that as far as you know that charge is without foundation.

Mr. HAY. Absolutely without foundation.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all, Senator. I am much obliged to you, sir.

Mr. HAY. Am I excused from further attendance here?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. Glad to see you, Senator.

Mr. HAY. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is within 10 minutes of adjourning time. We will adjourn until 2 o'clock.

(Thereupon, at 11.50 o'clock a. m., a recess was taken until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of the recess, Senator James A. Reed (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. With reference to the Illinois situation, the only other witnesses of whom we have knowledge are, first, Mr. Studebaker, whose office reports that some time ago he went East, and has left that point and is touring in Canada, and that they have been unable to get in touch with him; but the statement is made to me by his representative that as soon as they can get in touch with him he will appear and give his testimony; and if these hearings have been concluded here, he will go to Kansas City and give his testimony there. The only other witness of whom we have knowledge that would lead us to call him is Senator McKinley, who I am very sorry to say is in such condition of health that he can not be asked to testify. He has been in that condition during all of the time that this committee has been in existence. That is, of course, a matter of general regret. Is Mr. Hugh Emmons here?

TESTIMONY OF HUGH PAT EMMONS

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.) The CHAIRMAN. Please state your name. Mr. EMMONS. Hugh Pat Emmons.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you reside?

Mr. EMMONS. 825 Thirtieth Street, South Bend, Ind.
The CHAIRMAN. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. EMMONS. I have been connected with an organization known as the Ku-Klux Klan for the last three years.

The CHAIRMAN. In what capacity?

Mr. EMMONS. As the president of St. Joe County.

The CHAIRMAN. President of St. Joe County?

Mr. EMMONS. Yes. In the klan language my title was exalted cyclops.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you still holding that position?

Mr. EMMONS. No, sir; I am not.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you connected with any organization now?' Mr. EMMONS. Yes, sir; with a local club known as the Valley Tabernacle Association.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that in any way connected with the klan?
Mr. EMMONS. In no way at all.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that club devoted to?

Mr. EMMONS. It is a Christian, benevolent, patriotic organization, started from, you might say, a disgruntled klan.

The CHAIRMAN. Started by a disgruntled klan?

Mr. EMMONS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to say, if I understand you, Mr. Emmons, members of the Klan became dissatisfied with the Klan and organized this association?

Mr. EMMONS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Which is called the what?
Mr. EMMONS. Valley Tabernacle Association.
The CHAIRMAN. Is it an incorporated body?
Mr. EMMONS. It is not.

The CHAIRMAN. Or a voluntary association?
Mr. EMMONS. Just a voluntary association.

The CHAIRMAN. Is its membership confined to South Bend? That is your place, I believe.

Mr. EMMONS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To South Bend?

Mr. EMMONS. To St. Joe County.

The CHAIRMAN. What is its membership?

Mr. EMMONS. At present about 800.

The CHAIRMAN. Has it been larger than that in the past, or smaller?

Mr. EMMONS. It has been larger, while it was under the Klan. The CHAIRMAN. Was it once under the Klan?

Mr. EMMONS. It is, as I say, a sort of a disgruntled Klan movement, owing to the political situation.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you make that, Mr. Emmons, a little clearer?

Mr. EMMONS. Well, yes. I might tell you the story of how we became the Valley Tabernacle Association.