of the Bill; nothing could blot it ou thing prevent it from descending to post Was it fitting, then, for her Majesty's that such a preamble should remain proceedings of Parliament, without br it to the severe test of proof?—(Hear.) posing the charge were at this moment ped, he put it to their Lordships, as feeling and honour, whether they could after pay the Queen their homage of re with this uncontradicted preamble s them in the face?-Hear, hear.)-N could satisfy the house-nothing cou tisfy the public mind-nothing ought tisfy the Queen, but the production evidence, and the completion of the inquiry in an honest, straight forward uninterrupted course. (Cheers from all One topic more, and he had done course the Counsel at the Bar were bo discharge what they thought their d their client, and to smother all subor considerations; and if, in the course speeches they had delivered, he had fe ped her Majesty's residence abroad was a House from performing what it owed t sine qua non of all negotiation. Even if it virtuous, the respectable, and the peac were a common case of adultery, but much portion of the community.-(Cheers.)more if it were a case of the grossest kind, attempts, he knew, must have their in where the party accused had committed the influence on the minds of men; but it w offence in the face of the whole world, and influence they ought to expel, and to b appeared proud and anxious to manifest it in verned only by a fearless sense of high all parts of her conduct-he put it to every indispensible duty.-(Continued cheers.) man of sense and feeling whether ministers him put the case in another point of could consent that a person so circumstanced The question was not now whether th should fill the high station of Queen, and nisters of the Crown, knowing all the enjoy all the rights and privileges be- ought to bring them forward, not wh longing to her rank. (Hear, hear. He the accusation should be made; it had did not mean to say that suffering her to re-made, it stood indelibly upon the pre main abroad, so circumstanced, was not a great evil, but it was an evil that might be submitted to; but if she had lived at home, having set at defiance all regard for morality and the common decencies of life, it was au evil that, for the sake of the community at large, could not be endured.-(Hear, hear.)Something had been said by the Counsel at the Bar on the subject of adultery committed by a man and by a woman. Undoubtedly in the eyes of God the crime was in both cases the same, but their effects upon society and upon public decency were widely different; and this had not only been the opinion of mankind at all times, but their Lordships, in their legislative capacity, always acted upon it. Divorce bills were constantly pass ed on the petition of a man, but never, except, under especial circumstances, on the application of a woman. Yet adultery in men was by far the most frequent; for one case of the commission of the crime in a woman, he believed nine instances existed of its commission by a man? and why was not the same remedy applied? Merely because all-not to say disgust-at some of the were aware that there was no comparison they had urged, he believed it was i regarding the ill effects upon society in the mon with the great majority of the one case and in the other. If there were one They had adverted to the conduct of thing which more than another distinguished lustrious personage (the Duke of Yor modern from ancient times, it was the dif they seemed to have thought that a ferent degree of reverence and respect paid necessary for the interests of their to females, and this was mainly produced but if he (Lord Liverpool) had by the superior purity and virtue of the sex; asked whether it was for the inter those, therefore, who had established the their client to drag forward that doctrine regarding marriage and divorce now forgotten and unfortunate subject, he universally prevailing, instead of being the have answered that the interest o enemies of females, were, in truth, their client was directly the reverse. best friends, patrons, and protectors, and cheering.) He should say no mor most contributed to support that chastity this they acted on their own which added so much to the attraction of tion, they bad an arduous task to ex personal charms. If, then, the case against and what fell from them should be the Queen could be proved to be such as he with every possible indulgence. Th had stated it, notwithstanding all clamour, also asserted, that the whole object which he did not despise-notwithstanding bill was, that the Illustrious Persona all difficulties, which he did not underrateing the throne might be able to get it was the duty of the House to go straight his wife, and marry again. He (Lord forward to the conclusion of the course it pool) declared most solemnly befor had begun. He asserted, and he felt it Lordships that he believed that no su strongly, that nothing that had passed, that ing had entered into the mind of h no attempts to intimidate individual mem-jesty (hear, hear). For himself, bers, no attempts to over-awe the whole le-those who acted with him, he could gislature, no attempts to crush this great and the House, that that provision was a momentous proceeding, ought to prevent the the bill to which the least value was ed. Undoubtedly it followed as a corollary to the rest of the measure-it was a fair and ordinary conclusion; but it was the least important part of it, and was very far from being its chief object and intention, The part to which he did attach importance was that which enacted, that if a case were proved against the Queen she should no longer enjoy the rights and privileges of her station. He wished her not to be visited harshly-he wished the measure of punishment even to be as light as possible, and there were a thousand considerations which rendered it desirable that the facts should never be disclosed; but if what was charged against her were true, he never could reconcile to his mind that she should be his Queen, Having stated thus much with earnestness, but he hoped with temper and moderation, he should move, as an amendment, "That counsel be called in." The question having been put from the wool-sack, thinking that they had been governed by mistaken discretion, and that they would not only have better consulted their own feelings, but the advantage of the case they advocated, if they had abstained. To the illustrious person the object of their remarks he must pay that tribute which even the counsel could not withhold, and which the Noble Earl had repeated a tribute to the high and meritorious services he had performed for the public, and which established an undoubted claim to the affection and confidence of the people. (Cheers from all sides.) Having disposed of these matters, he would now address himself to the Bill upon the table. On its original introduction, and the motives leading to it, he wished on the present occasion to say as little as possible: on a previous occasion he had stated, some might think with too much asperity, his opinion on the conduct of ministers. Debating now a question which assumed a judicial character, he was desirous of abstaining from EARL GREY began by complimenting the every thing that could awaken angry or Noble Earl who had just sat down on his party feelings, that the great subject might most fair and candid statement, and at the be discussed with that temper and calmness same time most powerful and eloquent ap- which alone could lead to a conclusion satis peal to the judgment and feelings of the factory to the public. He would only, thereHouse. (Hear, hear.) He rose under the fore, in justice io himself, restate that, in impressions which a speech of such effect his original objection to the conduct of mimust naturally produce, and consequently uisters, he had taken both views of the ques- ' with a disposition, before he entered upon tion, not only the magnitude of the offence topics where he was unfortunately obliged to imputed, but the expediency of bringing it differ, to take advantage of those on which forward. It was the duty of ministers to have he could express his concurrence. He should made up their minds, and to have acted firmset out, therefore, with stating, that if this ly and definitively; and, without reviving Bill were to pass into a law, and were uiti- topics already dismissed, he must say that he mately to be considered the fit mode of pro could not yet see the distinction drawn by ceeding on this great and unfortunate ques- the Noble Earl between the residence of the tion, he agreed with the Noble Earl in think- Queen abroad or at home. (Hear.) If he ing that the clause relating to the Divorce looked back to the matters connected with was by far the least important part of it; he this point, he must recur to that act of real was also ready to receive the assurance that degradation, not more unfortunate than onit was not deemed a main object in the illus-just, which operated as an infliction of putrious quarter to which reference bad been made. He thought, likewise, that if. in consequence of the clear proof of the charges, it were necessary to proceed to the degrada. tion of the Queen, the cause of Divorce would follow, not as a measure of release to the King, but as a measure which the public interest made necessary to preserve the cha racter and dignity of the throne. He could got reconcile it with any principle of propriety or justice, that if the Queen were degraded for such crimes she should be left the wife of the King of Great Britain: (Cheers) He no less agreed with the Noble Earl (and he was anxious to state his concurrence) in the regret he had expressed at the mention of topics by the counsel at the bar, who, doubtless, had felt the most painful necessity of introducing them. The object, no doubt, was, that they might operate favourably for their client; but, giving them full credit for their motives (as from his knowledge of them he was bound to do), he could not help nishment without charge or investigation→→ the leaving of her Majesty's name out of the Liturgy. Let it be recollected that that unhappy circumstance had led to the return of the Queen, and the impossibility of repairing that fatal error occasioned the failure of the negociation. When she arrived, he had admitted that the Noble Earl was placed under the necessity of making his choice between a complete acknowledgment of the Queen, with all her rights and privileges, or the institution of a charge to justify him in refusing it. He (Lord Grey) could not concede to the Noble Earl the distinction he had taken, nor think that the interests of the people of England were consulted in the offer to enable her Majesty to continue ber licentious course upon a more splendid scale, and to make herself a degrading exhibition in the eyes of the whole continent of Eu rope. (Hear.) When the Noble Earl, there fore, talked of the choice of evils, surely that evil would have been as great as the in Judges as to the quality of the offence un the statute of Edward III. He agreed t sertion of her name in the Liturgy, the omission of which had reduced the House and the country to its present extremity. the opinion of those Learned Individuals (Cheers.) He now came to that considera- so far settled that question. It was admit tion, undoubtedly at the present moment on all hands that the law was clear as to most important to be decided, viz. whether a offence committed in England; but he (1 charge having been preferred, the present Grey) had been fully justified in the co mode of substantiating and proceeding upon he had taken, and in procuring the it was the only one which ought to be pur-decision of the Judges, because the H sued, or whether any other course were had previously been told by the highest I open for which the bill upon the table ought authority it possessed, that he had consi to be abandoned. That, in fact, was the able doubts upon the subject. He was real question now before the House; and in ther inclined to wish that he had put the outset he must state, that he was well questions temperately to the Judges; for aware that any thing he should prop se separate answers would have been given, must be liable to great objections. But the the points would have been given, and House was unfortunately placed in a situa. points would each have been settled i tion where no mode of proceeding could be times to come, and the decision per pointed out that was unattended with most have led the way to some new law upo serious difficulties and embarrassments. subject. Hitherto the difficulty had The Learned Counsel at the bar had exhi- arisen since the passing of the statute: bited a power of reasoning and eloquence construction had uniformly been put up never surpassed; and though they had not and it still remained the same, with perhaps suggested to his mind any points difference, that the authorities he absolutely new, yet they had presented the named had given their construction o difficulties with such accumulated force, that particular part of it. It was quite d he had felt almost overpowered by it: all then, according to the opinions o led to the practical result, that it was better judges, that an offence of this kind co to get rid of this proceeding, so pregnant ted abroad with a foreigner owing no with many evils. He was not prepared to giance to the crown of Great Britain adopt that recommendation, or to suggest not be prosecuted as high treason. H that the House should resign its high cha- of course, not the presumption to se racter and situation in the country as a dejudgment in opposition to that of the liberate body by yielding to popular clamour.of Judges; but conviction was not a The vote he had given two days ago had in a man's own power, and he was n cost him much pain-a degree of pain he satisfied that the view he had taken had never perhaps experienced before; it part of the subject was completely erro was apparently in favour of this measure, One doubt that still remained in his and in opposition to the opinions of many was this-whether, supposing the persons to whom he was politically united, had been committed in England with as well as engaged by the nearest ties of per-son not responsible to the law-with a fect confidence and unrestrained friendship. tic, for instance-on the principle But he had been placed in a situation where decision it would be an offence with he was determined to do his duty, at the ex-statute of Edward III; but, passin pence of all personal feeling; he felt that he had no option, and acted accordingly. What had then been proposed ?-To rescind a course of proceeding after a letter had been published of such a nature as to war-ed that a Bill of Pains and Penalties rant the supposition, if the House decided exception to the general rule of the c in the affirmative, that it was yielded to the tion giving parliament extraordinary F threat of open and public violence. (Loud which power, however, it ought to Cheers). That letter was not the immediate for the public safety in cases of eme subject of discussion; but he must say, that and where a special necessity was whoever advised her Majesty to write or to established. He had been supposed set her band to that letter, and to make that stated this point too strongly befor appeal to the worst passions of the people the more he had read and reflected against the decision of this the highest the more convinced was he, even w court of the empire, advised her to take a admitted their necessity and expedi step raising a presumption by no meaus particular times, that all the recorded favourable to her inuocence, and ill calcula. stances of their adoption showed tha ted to produce any advantageous effect on were rather beacons to be shunned the counsels or determination of the House amples to be followed. Such a of Lords. (Great Cheering). Under those could only have his acquiescence on circumstances he had given the vote to proofs of the necessity, and that p which he referred, and he had besides inter-tending even to the establishment posed a motion for putting a question to the other mode could be discovered, this question, it next came to be cons whether, a treason was out of the qu this Bill of Pains and Penalties was t remaining mode of proceeding. He c T other mode that had been mentioned was by mory did not exactly retain it at present, he impeachment, which the Noble Earl (Liver- would suspend the consideration to a future pool) had contended was inapplicable to this opportunity. Another case was a proceeding case; he had gone the whole length of assert- against the Bishop of Exeter; and he should ing than an impeachment by the House of therefore say, that both precedent and authoCommons would not reach this case. Herity tended to prove that the principle of (Earl Grey) had a tended with all possible impeachment was so extensive as to reach diligence to the arguments of counsel upon offences which were no offences at common this question, and in the opinion he had law; and crimes which were not known previously held he was not more confirmed either to the state or to the common law, by the powerful arguments of the advocates and that would not come under the descrip. for the Queen than by the admissions and tion even of moral offences, as affecting doubt of the Attorney and Solicitor-General. society; but which, as affecting public He was satisfied that an impeachment would interests, and the protection of the general lie, and must therefore totally dissent from welfare, Parliament had asserted to be within some of the principles laid down by theNoble its peculiar cognizance and power, for the Earl in reference to it. He could not concur benefit of those whom it was its highest that impeachment could only be resorted to duty to protect against all wrong. But for crimes known to the law, or for the mis-supposing the principle which had been conduct of some high public functionary. stated by the Noble Earl to be established, The reverse, in his judgment, was the fact. he (Earl Grey) denied that it would serve He could by no means admit that the im. him upon the present occasion. Did he peachment must relate to some crime already understand that Noble Earl to say, that the made punishable by statute, nor that, if offence of the Queen, if proved, was no otherwise, it must be confined to some officer crime against the laws of England! Did he engaged in the public service. Those condi- understand him to maintain that adultery tions were not necessary; and many cases of im- was no crime by those laws? If the Noble peachment might be stated, where the crimes Earl had said so, his Lordship and himself charged were not known to the law. Many (Earl Grey) were completely at issue on the political offences must necessarily be un-subject; for he must contend that it was known to the law; and though, in the proceedings on the treaty of Utrecht, many matters of accusation would have come within the known laws of the realm, yet there were other articles showing that Parliament proceeded against the parties for what did not come within any known law, written or understood. There were some instances of a remarkable nature connected with the transactions of that time, and one in particular, the case of Lord Haversham, in 1701. He was proceeded against not for any offence known to the law, but committed in Parliament: he was impeached" for words spoken this day at a free conference; and that the Lords be desired" (such were the words of the resolution)" to proceed in justice against the said Lord, and to inflict the punishment so high an offence deserves." The Lords also came to a resolution upon it in these terms:-" Resolved, that unless the said charge shall be prosecuted against the said Lord Haversham with effect by the Commons before the end of the session of Parliament, the Lords will declare and adjudge him wholly innocent of the said charge." Their Lordships had therefore, upon their books, a case which proves that the House of Lords recognised the right of the House of Commous to impeach for such an offence. Therefore the principle contended for by the Noble Earl (Liverpool), and which he would extend to the present case, could not be sustained. The Noble Earl had proceeded to refer to a case which occurred in Ireland (here a few words passed between Earl Grey and Lord Holland); but of this, as his me such a crime. It was a crime at civil law, Majesty occupied as Queen of England, ar upon another he agreed on it because it ha been committed when she was not Quee He came now to consider what would be t consequence of their Lordships__adopti the measure of an impeachment. The Nob Earl bad observed, that even were they proceed by impeachment, there were means of punishment applicable to the cas it would afford none that their Lordshi would consider to be applicable; and he h proceeded to infer from the case of Lo Strangford, which he had quoted, that " gradation" was not within the pow of the House of Lords as a judicial sembly The EARL of LIVERPOOL explaine He doubted whether a sentence of the Hot would have that effect, except it W followed by some special act of pa ament. stance, committed in it." Why this was tionary or not; she might be proceeded the very case, then, that should bring them against by impeachment: and as to its hav within the jurisdiction of Parliament.-ing been committed when she was only Prin Would he (Earl of Liverpool) who main-cess of Wales, the power of impeachmen tained that this was not a proper case should in this case be exercised upon th for any proceeding which might be appealed principles he had already stated. Whe to in Parliament, contend, that if a public the Noble Earl said, that this could not b functionary for instance, or other person, had done because the offence occurred befo committed some crime abroad,the commission she was Queen, that was rather an unfa of which incurred this consequence, that it observation, because at one time this offen produced great scandal and dishonour to his was adverted to by the Noble Earl, in co Majesty's throne and kingdom-(and be-nexion with the high station which h cause the crime had been committed abroad, it not being possible to prosecute such public functionary at home by any ordinary course of law)-would he contend that his crime would not come within the scope of parliamentary impeachment, and be that upon which their Lordships would be called on to decide? Why this, he thought, was a case which could not admit of any doubt or hesitation, and impeachments of this sort had occurred. Their Lordships would remember that that of Mr. Warren Hastings for the Mahratta war went upon the same principle; he was proceeded against as a pub'ic functionary. The rule universally was, that if a public functionary committed a crime, which, however, was not against the common laws, although against the public interests, parliament was charged with the protection of those public interests, Parliament was vested with the power to protect them; and, when they were called ioto question, Parliament had a right to protect them. Lord Coke had been yesterday quoted for the purpose of showing the ex tent of the powers of Parliament; and it was affirmed by Blackstore, in his commentaries, that its great power was expressly given to it, in order to carry into effect the due punishment of offences which ordinary magistrates dared not, or could not, punish. He (Earl Grey) said, that this was an offence which ordinary magistrates dared not, and could not, punish: but being an offence and a crime deeply injurious in its consequences to the public interests, it was within the power of Parliament, and just within those cases in which its power of impeachment could be properly exerted, and for which it was expressly given by the cou. stitution of the country. He contended that this was a case in which an impeach-of Lords, in his capacity of a Peer of Pa ment would lie: but the Noble Earl took ment. Now he did not know, in such another distinction. He admitted that the instance, how evidence could well be g Queen, invested with the rights and privi- before the House of Commons: such off leges of her exalted station, was to be con- having been committed by him as a Pee sidered as a public functionary, and that an Parliament, and in the exercise of bis offence committed by her was, in that point |liamentary duties, it was fair to suppose of view, cognizable by impeachment; but, an argument might arise in the Hous said the Noble Earl, "this offence was com Commons upon the inquiry, the resul mitted before she was Queen." To this, his which might not be a Bill of Pains and first answer he had already given-that this nalties. As to what the Noble Earl ha being a crime known to the laws, it was of ferred from Lord Strangford's case, surel no public consequence whether she were to must recollect that the great Lord Ba be considered in the light of a public func-under a sentence of that House, after EARL GREY, in continuation, said t the Noble Farl had enumerated a variety cases in which degradation had been decr by that House; and that their abridgem was almost enough for the case of his (E Grey's) argument. His Lordship had ferred to the case of Lord Strangford pressly to show, as he understood it, t upon an occasion when the House of L wished to inflict degradation, the House Lords in Ireland found it necessary to sort to a Bill of Pains and Penalties, not to an impeachment. But he (Earl G thought he could show the Noble Earl they had other reasons for that course, did not think that a sentence of degrada could only be effected by a Bill of Pains Penalties. In that particular case, t Lordships would recollect that the offe charged was committed by him in the H |