in New York City, and he is I think a resident of New York City, although he is a neighbor and a resident of California.

The CHAIRMAN. Is he present in this room this morning?
Mr. HEARST. He is present right here.

The CHAIRMAN. We will ask Mr. Clark also to remain.

Mr. CLARK. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. What then happened, after this gentleman whose name you have given us privately wrote to Mr. Clark?

Mr. HEARST. I think there were several communications, indicating the importance that he attached to these documents; and that he finally stated he thought for a small amount of expenditure, one or two thousand dollars, he could get copies, or get a sight of these docI was a little doubtful about them, naturally, as everyone would be in approaching a matter of that kind; and I was especially dubious about some of the references to United States Senators, and I mentioned that fact. As far as I remember, I think he said that nevertheless the documents contained those references, and the documents included references to a great many other matters, and he believed in their importance and urged getting fuller knowledge of them.

The CHAIRMAN. In his communications to Mr. Clark did this man say that he had seen them himself?

Mr. HEARST. I do not think he had, but he wanted to see them.
The CHAIRMAN. He wanted to see them?

Mr. HEARST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very good. Now, what happened next?

Mr. HEARST. What happened next was that I authorized, I think, an expenditure of $1,000.

The CHAIRMAN. How did this matter come to you, from Mr. Clark?

Mr. HEARST. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. When was that?

Mr. HEARST. It was in the early part of this year, I should think possibly in April.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. What happened then, after you authorized the expenditure of $1,000?

Mr. HEARST. Well, I got a further communication in some way, and it said that this matter had broadened out and that there were several other documents and that the total expenditure would be $3,000. I consented to that, and then this gentleman and a Mr. Page

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Who is he?

Mr. HEARST. He was the correspondent of the International News Service in Mexico.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that Mr. John Page?

Mr. HEARST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is he here in the room this morning?

Mr. HEARST. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well; this unnamed man and Mr. John Page-and was there anybody else?

Mr. HEARST. I think there was a man named Avala.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you spell his name?

Mr. HEARST. I think it is spelled A-v-a-l-a, but I am not sure.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know his first name?

Mr. HEARST. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Is he in the room this morning?

Mr. HEARST. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Avala here?

Mr. AVALA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not go away without the committee's permission.

Mr. AVALA. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. They came to you, did they?

Mr. HEARST. They came to Mr. Clark first.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. HEARST. In New York, and then Mr. Clark and this gentleman and Mr. Page came up to my house, and they showed me some-oh, about 10 documents, I think, and

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Ten of these documents which you have turned over to the committee?

Mr. HEARST. Yes; and they said that they were original documents, not copies.

The CHAIRMAN. Up to that time you had expected to get only copies, had you?

Mr. HEARST. I had originally expected to get copies; yes. I then went over them and they seemed of great importance. I asked them if they had made every effort to make sure of the authenticity of the documents, and they said they had; and this is my remembrance, although I do not know how accurate I am in it, but I think they said that they had submitted the documents to Ambassador Sheffield, and that he had been unable to find any indication of lack of genuineness in the documents, and I think they said they had also submitted them to the counsellor for the embassy, with the same result, and--oh, they said that the people who had delevered these documents, the clerks who had delivered these documents from the archives of the bureau, felt that they were in more or less danger in Mexico and were going to leave Mexico.

The CHAIRMAN. That the clerk who had delivered the documents? Mr. HEARST. I think there were two of them.

The CHAIRMAN. That the clerks who delivered them.

Mr. HEARST. Yes, sir; and that they were going to leave Mexico, and that they would probably bring other documents with them, and that they wanted to know if they should make an effort to get those other documents when they arrived. I had been very much impressed by the importance of the documents that I had seen, and I said: "Yes, if there are any further documents that tend to corroborate what we already have, I should like to have them." I thought they should get them. And they went to San Antonio, Mr. Page and this gentleman, and interviewed those clerks when they arrived there and secured the other documents, which were a quite numerous bunch and contained other very important matter.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they give you the names of those two Mexican clerks?

Mr. HEARST. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the papers which they received in San Antonio included in the package which you have turned over to the committee?

Mr. HEARST. Yes; as I understand it, everything is in that package.

The CHAIRMAN. You say Mr. Page went to San Antonio?
Mr. HEARST. And this gentleman.

The CHAIRMAN. And this man whose name you have given us privately?

Mr. HEARST. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did Avala also go?

Mr. HEARST. I think so. I did not have any communication with Mr. Avala that I remember, but I think he went with them.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he in the party that came to your house on that first occasion bringing to you 10 of these documents?

Mr. HEARST. I met him somewhere, and I do not know whether it was there or not, but I do not think it was.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever ask him to describe to you the method he had adopted to get these papers? Did he describe it to you?

Mr. HEARST. No. I really do not know what part he played in it, except that I think he was employed in getting them.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what next happened after they got this second bundle of papers at San Antonio?

Mr. HEARST. Well, the situation was increasingly serious, because these documents apparently were of additional importance and affected the Nicaraguan situation and the arbitration of important claims and other matters that you are familiar with, and I was in a quandary as to what to do with them. I asked Mr. Clark to take them to South Dakota-I suppose this is all right to say-and submit them to the President, who was in his summer home there. I understand from Mr. Clark that he did take them out there, and that the President was not willing to become acquainted with the details, but apparently had some knowledge of them, possibly through Ambassador Sheffield, to whom they had been submitted. I understand that the President said to Mr. Clark-but Mr. Clark will testify as to that matter-that it was desirable to bear in mind that while certain accusations were made in these documents, there might possibly be the situation that the moneys mentioned therein had never reached the gentlemen mentioned.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Hearst, when did you get the papers which contained the names of United States Senators? Were they in the first batch?

Mr. HEARST. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Or were they in the San Antonio batch?

Mr. HEARST. They were in the first batch.

The CHAIRMAN. What investigation, if any, did you make to ascertain whether payments actually reached Senators as hinted at in these documents?

Mr. HEARST. We could not make any investigations without entirely disclosing the documents.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, did you make any?

Mr. HEARST. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you interview any of these Senators to find. out their side of the transaction?

Mr. HEARST. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make any investigation to find out whether the money mentioned in certain telegrams here had actually been transmitted by telegraph to New York?

Mr. HEARST. I think we tried to make such investigations. But, as I say, the gentlemen who handled the details of this matter, Mr. Page and Mr. Coblentz, are here and they will give you all the details of what they tried to do in the way of verifying the signature of Calles, by submitting the documents to various people in authority and comparing the documents to see whether and where they supported each other.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you obtained any evidence which indicates that any Senator accepted any payment mentioned in these letters? Mr. HEARST. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any reason to believe that any Senator did accept any such money?

Mr. HEARST. I have no reason to believe it at all. As a matter of fact, I do not believe it.

The CHAIRMAN. You believe that they did not?

Mr. HEARST. I believe that they did not. That is my personal

opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any evidence or have you heard of any evidence to show that any of these Senators knew anything about this transaction?

Mr. HEARST. No.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did you pay in all for these papers, Mr. Hearst?

Mr. HEARST. I imagine about $15,000 or $16,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That was paid in installments as the letters came along, was it?

Mr. HEARST. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Where are these two Mexican clerks now, do you know?

Mr. HEARST. I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know whether they are in Mexico or are in this country?

Mr. HEARST. I do not; but I imagine that possibly some of the people connected with our publications, some of the people who are here to testify, in other words, can give you something about that.

Senator ROBINSON. Did you ever come in contact personally with the two persons who were said to be clerks in the Mexican Foreign Affairs office and who sold these documents?

Mr. HEARST. No, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you know who they are?

Mr. HEARST. No, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. Who represented you in the negotiations with them, Mr. Page and the Mr.

Mr. HEARST (interposing). And this gentleman.

Senator ROBINSON. The gentleman whose name you gave to the chairman of the committee a few minutes ago written on a slip of paper?

Mr. HEARST. Yes.

Senator ROBINSON. You referred to the fact that he owned large business interests in Mexico. You, yourself, own large business interests there, do you not?

Mr. HEARST. I think I do.

Senator ROBINSON. Would you mind stating in a general way what are your interests that you own there?

Mr. HEARST. I have some ranches and some mines. Senator ROBINSON. What are the names of the mines? Or, were they the mines that you names as Mr. Clark being interested in?

Mr. HEARST. No. One of those is in Peru and the other is in the United States, in South Dakota. But Mr. Clark can tell you the names of the mines; he is interested in that end of the business. Senator ROBINSON. You, yourself, do not recall the names of the mines which you are interested?

Mr. HEARST. I do not.

Senator ROBINSON. And you do not know the locations of them? Mr. HEARST. I do not know the exact locations, no.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you know how many there are?

Mr. HEARST. I think there is only one that is of any importance. Senator ROBINSON. Well, you know where that is, do you not? Mr. HEARST. Well, I do not really know the exact location, but Mr. Clark will tell you all of that.

Senator ROBINSON. How extensive, if you do not mind saying, are your investments in Mexico?

Mr. HEARST. Why, I suppose they amount to three or four millions of dollars.

Senator ROBINSON. Are your interests incorporated there, or do you own them individually?

Mr. HEARST. They are incorporated.

Senator ROBINSON. When this matter was first brought to your attention, and you first saw the documents, did you secure the assistance or services of a Spanish or Mexican student or scholar to construe the genuiness of the articles?

Mr. HEARST. Why, this gentleman told me that all that had been gone through with.

Senator ROBINSON. Your agents did make an investigation?
Mr. HEARST. Yes.

Senator ROBINSON. You heard that the President of Mexico had pronounced these, or similar articles, as forgeries?

Mr. HEARST. I did, and I understood under what conditions he had done it. For instance, they had issued a statement that they were forgeries, and that the forgeries had been offered them, to be sold back to them I suppose, in August, as far back as August, and that they had refused to have anything to do with them. At least that is my remembrance of the statement, but inasmuch as the documents had been in our possession since May and June I did not pay much attention to that statement.

Senator ROBINSON. You did not believe they could get them out of your possession and sell them back to the people from whom they had. taken them?

Mr. HEARST. No.

Senator ROBINSON. Even if the original parties had been willing to pay for them?

Mr. HEARST. It seemed to me that if a part of that statement was distinctly untrue, then it was quite possible that all of is was untrue. Senator ROBINSON. Did you learn of any grammatical errors in these articles, which tended, in your judgment, to impeach the validity of them?

Mr. HEARST. I believe there are some grammatical errors in the documents, but I am told that that is not unusual, that-well, I do