The CHAIRMAN. With what papers or groups of papers are you connected?

Mr. WATSON. The Hearst newspapers and the New York Daily Mirror.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you the editor in chief of the New York Daily Mirror?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Mr. Page?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you first hear of the existence of any of these papers that have been produced to the committee by Mr. Hearst.

Mr. WATSON. On or about July 8, 1927.

The CHAIRMAN. Who told you about them?

Mr. WATSON. Mr. Coblentz.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. WATSON. In the New York American office.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that the first you knew of the existence of any such papers?

Mr. WATSON. That was the first I knew anything about it.
The CHAIRMAN. What did he tell you about them?

Mr. WATSON. I had been summoned out to California to go into some things with Mr. Hearst, and Coblentz, assuming that among others these papers would be concerned, showed me photostats of such documents as he then had.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he ask you to do anything about it at that time?

Mr. WATSON. Not that I recall.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your first connection with them?
Mr. WATSON. In California at the Hearst ranch.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened there?

Mr. WATSON. Page and Avila, and I can not place the date exactly but, starting from New York on July 9, there were about four days of traveling time to the coast, and about two or three days in Los Angeles and then up to the ranch, and that would bring it to about July 17 to 20 or somewhere in that period. It came up in connection with some additional papers. I was introduced to Page, who introduced me to Avila, and Mr. Hearst asked me to look the papers over.

The CHAIRMAN. You had never seen either Page or Avila before that?

Mr. WATSON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you look the papers over?

Mr. WATSON. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. For what purpose were you asked to look them over?

Mr. WATSON. That would be a conclusion on my part, but I assume for newspaper purposes.

The CHAIRMAN. There was no purpose stated?

Mr. WATSON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. What impression did you form as to their genuineness?

Mr. WATSON. Well, I was pretty well convinced at first blush that they were probably genuine.

The CHAIRMAN. What inquiry did you make to reinforce that conviction?

Mr. WATSON. At that moment nothing. It was not necessary at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. What conclusion was reached about the way this should be handled in that California conference?

Mr. WATSON. That was really what I went over them for, to determine the sequence and all that sort of thing, for newspaper purposes.

The CHAIRMAN. What conclusion did you reach?

Mr. WATSON. That is best expressed by the way they were published.

The CHAIRMAN. You reached the conclusion that they should be published?

Mr. WATSON. I think we varied perhaps a little bit in our views. I had the idea that we should open with a smash with the Japanese treaty, and other opinions were that we might approach it mildly and take up Nicaragua first.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, then, you went back to New York, did you? Mr. WATSON. No; I went back to Los Angeles.

The CHAIRMAN. What was next done in regard to the papers as far as you were concerned?

Mr. WATSON. Down in Los Angeles we studied the papers a great deal, and thought about them a great deal, and brought up the question of authenticity.

The CHAIRMAN. You brought up the question of authenticity? Mr. WATSON. I think we all did. I know I did for my purposes at any rate.

The CHAIRMAN. What excited your suspicion?

Mr. WATSON. I had no suspicion, but it is the natural thing for a trained newspaperman dealing with documents of that sort to know where he is going to land with them.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, tell us what was done, please, at Los Angeles. Mr. WATSON. I talked with Page. I do not read Spanish and some of the new documents had to be translated by Page so I could study them. And, as for a mass of fresh documents, the relation of one to the other had to be considered. I went over with Page, who was familiar with Mexican affairs, the background and the probable meaning of those Nicaraguan papers, and finally concluded that he better-well, I outlined stories and gave him some idea of what the first story should be, and the second story, and so on, but told him that, since the matter was in his hands, to disregard anything I told him if he felt it should be disregarded and we would take that up later. I said: One important thing to do is to get some evidence that will tend to show the authenticity of the documents. We went over a great many ordinary newspaper methods that could be followed, and, as near as I could see, it might take us anywhere from six months to a year and cause the expenditure of a very large sum of money to do some of the things we might have done. I concluded that the best short cut was to plant a man right in the Mexican offices in New York City.

The CHAIRMAN. That was your suggestion, was it?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. I suggested to Page that this man come to New York and apply for a position, try to get a job in the Mexican offices, and be there and do nothing in particular except to keep his eyes open and be in a position to advise as to what was passing through, and that after I got back to New York that I would devise some way of causing some excitement which would necessitate correspondence between that office and the home office in Mexico. At that time I thought we might take the Attorney General of the United States into our confidence, or the Secret Service, and catch them red-handed at something along those lines. I asked Page to go on to Washington, and, among other things, to go to the Nicaraguan Legation or Embassy, whatever it is, and see if Nicaragua could give us any facts that might tend to substantiate the Nicaraguan part of these documents.

The CHAIRMAN. A little louder, please.

Mr. WATSON. That the Nicaraguan Legation I thought might give us something to substantiate the Nicaragua phase of this matter. I also had in mind that in view of the fact there were documents indicating that money had been spent to help or to promote the British coal strike, that evenually we might go to the British Embassy and get some help from them. I thought of all the things we might do, but the specific instructions were to go to the Nicaraguan Legation, the American State Department, and for Avila to try to get a job in the Mexican office in New York City, and that I would see them when I got back to New York; that in the meantime if I did not get back soon for him to take matters up with Coblentz in New York.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you get back to New York?
Mr. WATSON. Somewhere around the 1st of September.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you immediately take this matter up when you got back.

Mr. WATSON. Just as to the further preparation of the stories. I looked over some of the stories that Page had written, and made some suggestions about changing the context around. I did not think the stories were just as they might have been, but it was purely on the matter of the newspaper presentation.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make any further examination or inquiry to determine the authenticity of those papers?

Mr. WATSON. I was in New York just about four or five days and was very busy on other matters. I inquired if Avila had gotten his job, and he had not, but at that time was hopeful that he might get it. He had a pleasant situation in the Mexican offices, that is what I understood, but so far had not gotten anything, but thought that he might soon get a job. At that time for general organization matters I was recalled to California. Among other things, the editor of the Mirror had been killed and the question came up about my taking the Mirror in charge, and that was one of the things I went out to discuss, and was out this time perhaps two weeks, and with traveling time got back shortly before the 1st of October. At that time the matter was entirely in Coblentz's hands. I told him-in fact, I wired them from the West that I had decided to accept the job of running the Mirror.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your position before that?

Mr. WATSON. The immediate position before that was in the general management of the organization and also as one of the managing editors of the New York American.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, what next happened with regard to these papers?

Mr. WATSON. That is where I stepped out of the picture. I went over to the Mirror, and since then have been very busily occupied trying to learn how to run a tabloid.

The CHAIRMAN. Without going into that interesting subject, I want to ask you whether you discussed with Page or any other person certain grammatical irregularities in some of these documents?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir. As I have said, I do not talk Spanish, and do not read it, and would not know.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he tell you of certain errors?

Mr. WATSON. Yes. There came up, for example, and I have a recollection of a conversation particularly about names and the great failing of South Americans and the Mexicans in the matter of mixing up names, of names that were foreign to them, whether they be American or Russian or any other names, they usually get them mixed up. That was obvious to me. There was great question, for instance, as to the name Litvinoff or Livitnoff, and there were several other things of that sort. And Page said that the types of people that wrote those things in Mexico were liable to have almost any kind of errors in them.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not engage the services or advice of any other scholar of Spanish?

Mr. WATSON. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Than Mr. Page?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir. I thought I had devised what to me, as a newspaper man with a great many years' experience, was the very best way to get evidence that would corroborate or disprove the documents.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, to plant Avila in the consulate general in New York?

Mr. WATSON. In the consul general's office. That if these were legitimate documents that had been passing back and forth, there would be necessarily some record of them in the office in New York. The CHAIRMAN. Did it not occur to you that that was asking Avila to corroborate himself?

Mr. WATSON. What difference would it make if the documents were gotten in New York?

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me it would make a lot of difference if the genuineness of the original documents and the confirming documents both depended upon the statement of the same man.

Mr. WATSON. I would not think so, Senator. I mean, that is not the way it would impress me at all, but it is just a matter of opinion. The CHAIRMAN. Any questions by the members of the committee? Senator ROBINSON. Can you state or summarize, Mr. Watson, the circumstances which prompted the conclusion that the papers were genuine and not forged?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. Among other things, I asked Page if he had any of Calles's signatures with him, and he showed me the book which you now have in evidence here. Of course, I do not pretend to be a handwriting expert, but

Senator JOHNSON (interposing). Is that the book you handed me last night?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir. We will not get into that, because I could bring 16 handwriting experts to say they are Calles's signatures, and somebody else could bring 16 handwriting experts to prove that they are not. But according to my best judgment-and I had to be the judge for my own purpose-they were Calles's signatures.

Senator ROBINSON. Of course, you, have stated that you are not a handwriting expert.

Mr. WATSON. I am not.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you think a clever forger could copy another's handwriting so that you could not distinguish the difference? Mr. WATSON. That has been done to very prominent and important bank cashiers.

Senator ROBINSON. I admit that that is so.

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. But the signatures looked like the signatures of President Calles?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir; they looked like that to me.

Senator ROBINSON. Was there any other incident that addressed itself to your mind that showed the authenticity of the documents? Mr. WATSON. The general probability of it, as I had understood Mexico vaguely for a long time.

Senator ROBINSON. Anything else that you can recall?
Mr. WATSON. No; that was it.

Senator ROBINSON. The signatures of the President of Mexico and the general probability that such documents would be in existence were the only circumstances that led you to the conclusion that they were genuine?

Mr. WATSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ROBINSON. Did Avila get his position or employment in the New York office?

Mr. WATSON. That I can not testify to.

Senator ROBINSON. You do not know about that?

Mr. WATSON. No.

Senator ROBINSON. You never followed it up?

Mr. WATSON. No, sir. This has just been one of a lot of other things.

Senator ROBINSON. Do you know whether he applied for a position there?

Mr. WATSON. No. I think he had gotten, according to the testimony here, did not he get it while in Mexico?

Senator ROBINSON. Sir?

Mr. WATSON. Did not he get his employment in Mexico? I did not hear the testimony.

Senator ROBINSON. You said your plan was to plant him in the Mexican office of the consul general in New York.

Mr. WATSON. Oh, I see what you mean, now.

Senator ROBINSON. So as to get corroborative evidence.

Mr. WATSON. I have already testified that up to the time of my first return to New York he had not gotten employment.