tions, and that, as a precedent, it violated | tion, as it was signed by seven thousand all the principles on which the security of one hundred and fifty persons. On the private property rested. He waited noble earl's presenting a similar petition to be convinced of its necessity; feel- from the undersigned clergy of Livering that the abuses of the system of pool, the forty-shilling freeholders required correction, but not seeing that it was necessary to connect the reform of those abuses with the Roman Catholic Relief bill, and not being satisfied that the abuses of the system could not be removed, except by the general destruction of the franchise. HOUSE OF LORDS. Lord Skelmersdale said, that as he was connected with the neighbourhood from which that petition came, he would make a few observations upon it. This petition was, in its prayer and tendency, quite opposite to one which had been presented on a former evening by the right reverend prelate. From communications which he had received, he was afraid that the representation which had gone abroad respecting the words used by the right reverend prelate had created a consider ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS-PETI-able mistake, as to the views which he TIONS FOR AND AGAINST.] The interest excited by the expected discussion on the Roman Catholic Relief bill collected a great crowd round the doors of their lordships' House at an early hour. Although there was a great number of constables, they could with difficulty keep order. The House was much crowded when the reporters were admitted; the space below the Throne was completely filled, as well as the space allotted to the public. Several ladies were present, actually entertained. The right reverend prelate appeared to have stated, that if any person supposed that the clergy were inaccessible to reason, and untutored by experience on this question, that person was mistaken, as he had a petition to produce from the clergy of Liverpool, in favour of emancipation, which proved the reverse. Now, the inference from such an assertion appeared to be, that those clergymen who were opposed to concession were inaccessible to reason, and un-: The Marquis of Downshire said, he had tutored by experience; and the consea petition to present from the Roman Ca-quence was, that such part of the clergy tholic bishop and clergy of the diocese of of Liverpool as had not signed the former Dromore, in favour of the Catholic claims.petition, were indignant that such an imHe had no difficulty in presenting it, knowing, as he did, the respectability of the reverend personage whose name was at the head of the signatures. He could, from his own knowledge, state that Dr. Kelly was a man of great respectability and of unblemished character. There were, however, clauses in the Catholic Relief bill to which the doctor objected. putation against them should come from their diocesan. He had great satisfaction in learning, that these clergymen had taken offence at what the right rev. prelate did not say. In the observations which the right rev. prelate had made, he was speaking, not with reference to the clergy of his diocese, but with reference to some observations which had been made on the subject by a noble lord. The Earl of Eldon said, that he had a petition to present from a body of Protest- Lord Farnham said, he had a petition to ant Dissenters residing in London and present to their lordships against the Irish Westminster against any further conces- Freeholders' Qualification bill, from a sions to the Roman Catholics. He had a Mr. Thomas Flannigan. Their lordships similar petition to present from the under- would recollect, that during the last sesgraduates and students of the University sion they had spent a number of days in of Glasgow. In presenting it he would investigating the alleged corruption of a observe, that he was no friend to petitions single borough, and that after their inves- got up among under-graduates of any uni-tigation they had refused their assent to a versity; but as these petitioners were subjects of his majesty, and had requested him to present their petition, he held it his duty to comply with their request. There was also a petition from Kingstonupon-Hull, which deserved peculiar attenVOL. XXI. bill of disfranchisement. But now they were about to pass a bill, which would disfranchise from two hundred thousand to three hundred thousand freeholders, without inquiry, and without asking a question of a single witness. C [Here there was a loud cry for the "order of the day," which was met by similar cries of " go on, go on more petitions."] Lord Kenyon rose to order. Noble lords, he said, had raised a great clamour in calling upon them, when a bill of greater consequence was before them than any which had been introduced into parliament since the year 1689, to proceed to the order of the day without hearing the petitions against it from hundreds of thousands of the people, Much as he felt ashamed of the House, on account of the resolution to which their lordships had come the other night at the instance of the noble duke, who wished them to proeeed forthwith with this bill, he should feel still more ashamed, if their lordships, on account of the intense interest which it excited throughout the country, and of the hundreds of petitions which now called upon them not to subvert the Protestant religion, for the preservation of which his majesty's family was placed on that throne, and from the continued support of which his majesty derives his only right to sit upon that throne [cries of "hear," amid louder cries of "order," which caused the noble baron to pause, and leave the sentence incomplete. He then proceeded.] He trusted that noble lords would give him credit for the best intentions, and that if he was not so correct in his expressions as many of their lordships, who were more in the habit of addressing the House, they would make every allowance for his inexperience. It was consistent with ordinary courtesy, for noble lords to conceive that his meaning was right, when two different interpretations could be put upon his words. At this time, when greater interest was felt by the people upon this question, than had ever been felt on any other question within his remembrance, their lordships were called upon to proceed to the order of the day, without deigning to pay the slightest attention to the petitions of hundreds of thousands of their supplicating countrymen. He hoped that their lordships would not be led away by the dictation of some, or by the clamour of others. The petitions of the people were entitled to attention, and there was no time during which they could be so fitly considered as the time when their lordships were going to pass the bill against which these petitions were directed. If they turned a deaf ear to' these petitions, it would be most indecent conduct; and if any thing could add to the discontent which was felt by the people at the intention of government to make these changes in the constitution, after every thing had been done to lull the nation into security, and to induce it to suppose that no such innovations were intended, it would be the refusal of their lordships to attend to their petitions. That was the only aggravation which could be added to the grievances of the people: bút that aggravation he trusted they would not receive [hear, hear]. There was then a cry of "Go on with petitions." Earl Beauchamp said, that on Thursday he had presented a petition from the parish of St. John, Worcester, against any further concession to the Catholics. noble lord had then thought proper to comment, in terms of great severity, on the manner in which that petition had been procured, and on the conduct of a reverend gentleman, whom he accused as the principal agent in procuring it. He had received a letter from the individual whose conduct had been impugned, denying the imputations which had been cast upon him. The individual had requested him to read his letter to their lordships. The Duke of Wellington rose to order. Earl Beauchamp hoped the noble duke would not object to his reading the let ter. The Duke of Wellington.-Personally, I have no objection to hear the letter read; but the forms of the House, as there is no motion before it, render it highly irregular. Lord Rolle. Then I beg to move an adjournment. The Duke of Wellington.-If the noble earl is going to present a petition, or if he is going to make a motion upon a petition, the House will listen to him with pleasure; but if the noble earl is only going to read a letter, then I must say that it will be much more regular to proceed at once with other petitions. Earl Beauchamp. There is now a motion to adjourn, and so I have a right to go on. The rev. gentleman, whose letter I am going to read, writes as follows [cries of" No, no "]:-"I am sorry to say, that I perceive by the newspapers that observations were made on my conduct, in the House of Lords" Lord Goderich.-The noble earl is now clearly out of order. Though he may | As he was upon his legs, he would shortly have a right to read a letter to us, he advert to some of the observations which cannot, conformably with long-established had fallen from the noble baron on the practice, read to us a letter commenting cross-bench. He could assure, the noble on a speech which the writer says was de- baron, that he was not one of those who livered in this House by one of your lord- would concur in any indecent exclusion ships. Every man has a right to justify of the petitions of the people. So far his conduct; but no one ever took the from seeking to exclude them from the method of justifying himself before your notice of their lordships, he would afford lordships which is now attempted to be every facility to the presentation of them; taken by this rev. gentleman. but if he saw reason to believe, that attempts were making, by means of petitions, to delay the ulterior proceedings of the House upon this bill-if he saw reason to believe, that petitions were accumulated upon petitions for this occasion, when an equally convenient period for presenting them occurred last night, without any advantage being taken of it-if he saw reason to believe, that petitions were now offered to the House for the purpose of creating delay, and for no other purpose, he would put himself forward at once, and, regardless of the taunts to which he might be exposed, as acting with indecent haste, and undeterred by the calumnies which would, of course, await him, he would deprecate the use of arts which were resorted to, not so much with an intention to forward the petitions of the people, as with an intention to embarrass the progress of government. The House yesterday was almost totally unoccupied by business. He had come down to it with two important petitions, in order that he might not impede the progress of business by presenting them to-day. Hardly any peers were then present; and if any of them should now complain, that the petitions of the people were not heard, it was entirely owing to their own negligence; and that, if the House intended to consult its own character and dignity, it would call for the order of the day.-The noble baron on the cross-bench had also told their lordships, that he was ashamed of the proceedings of the House on the evening before last; and that he should be still more ashamed, if the House did not wait to receive the petitions of the people. He certainly was not one of those who felt much affected with the shame which the noble baron seemed to think was the natural consequence of their former proceedings; for, to speak the truth, he cordially concurred in them. He cordially concurred in that indecent haste which the noble baron had censured so severely. He said that no indecent Earl Grey said, he apprehended that nothing could be more irregular or more irreconcileable with the ordinary course of their lordships' proceedings, than the line of conduct which had just been adopted by the noble earl. An order had been recently made, to prevent the tumultuous assemblages, which sometimes took place round the table, when noble lords had petitions to present; and a regulation, which was new, at least here, had been framed for the greater order of their proceedings, by which it was directed, that every peer who had a petition to present should, for the convenience of the House, put his name down upon a paper, and be called upon by the clerk in his turn. That regulation was not intended to give any person who had put his name down upon the list an opportunity for making a motion upon any other subject; least of all, for producing a letter, commenting on what the writer had read as passing among their lordships, to the interruption of those proceedings of which the greater regularity was intended to be established. He hoped the noble earl would not persevere in attempting to make an explanation, which he could easily find an opportunity of making upon another night. The noble earl, conformably to the order of the House, had no right to insert his name on the petition list, as he had no petition to present. It was for the convenience of the House to see that regularity was preserved; and it would be a palpable contravention of their recent order, if noble lords could insert their names on the petition list for objects so different from it, and for purposes inconsistent, at any time, with the regularity of their proceedings. He therefore hoped that the noble earl would reserve his explanation for another time, when he would be equally in a condition to give it, and that he would not prevent the House from proceeding instantly to discuss the important bill which was then before it. was, that the last time he was in the House, he had brought down the very petitions which he had just presented, but he did not present them because there were only four peers in the House. He never would act such a part to those who intrusted him with their petitions, as to present them when there were only four peers present, and when he could not make even those four peers listen to what he might say. He certainly had delayed the presentation of them till to-night; but if he had wished to create delay, he should have brought down three times the number of petitions; and he could assure the House, that he now had that number safe at home. The Earl of Malmesbury said, he was most anxious to learn whether the observation of the noble earl (Grey) upon the motives which had led to the different proposals for delay, were intended to apply to the motion which he had made the other night for the postponement of the second reading of the Catholic Relief Bill. haste had been exhibited either by the House or by any member of the House. It was impossible to suppose, that their lordships were not, one and all, prepared for the discussion of to-night, on the principle of relieving their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects from their civil disabilities. A question which had now been debated almost annually for the last thirty years, which had been in various shapes so long before the House, which for the last two months had given rise to incidental debates every day, could not be considered as a novel question, and therefore they could not justly be accused of seeking to take the House by surprise. He well knew that there were some, not, he trusted, now in the House, who were anxious that that decision should not now take place. The delay called for could not be wanted for deliberation; could not be wanted for any purpose of fair discussion: no, it was wanted for the purpose of inflaming the public mind, by the dissemination of the most false and infamous placards; it was wanted to produce irritation, consternation, and dismay, which he trusted that no noble lord had ever encouraged any man to produce. He felt himself called upon to denounce such attempts in the strongest language. He trusted that they would fail in producing any effect; but if they did produce any effect, it must be in disturbing the public tranquillity, and in exciting the people to those disgraceful scenes--thank God, they had too firm a government to fear a recurrence of them --which the metropolis witnessed amidst the flames and riots which signalized the year 1780. He could not help saying thus much; and if noble lords who had petitions to present had neglected to present them when the time of the House was unoccupied, he hoped they would withhold them to some more convenient opportunity, which would arise for their consideration before the passing of the bill. He also hoped that they would not be deterred by artifices of this nature from proceeding to the discussion which was fixed for that evening, and which was most anxiously expected by the public. The Earl of Eldon said, that the noble earl knew him well enough to be aware, that he was not likely to disgrace himself by endeavouring to produce any unnecessary delay in the discussion of an important measure like the present. The fact Earl Grey-No, no. The Earl of Malmesbury said, that that declaration relieved his mind from considerable anxiety; for it appeared to him, that the noble earl had accused him of seeking delay, for other objects than those which he had professed. Now, he had the deepest respect for the petitions of the people, but he would not, for the sake of procuring them, condescend to appeal to their passions. He had made his motion for the further postponement of the second reading of the bill, from a regard to the dignity and character of their lordships' proceedings. Did not their lordships see the inconvenience to which they had exposed themselves by their extraordinary precipitancy? Only one day had elapsed since the first reading of that bill; and what was that day? One of those days on which, by courtesy and the wholesome practice of parliament ministers were allowed to be absent from their places in both Houses. Earl Grey said :- I can assure the noble earl, with the utmost truth and sincerity, that no man is less disposed than I am to cast aspersions on the purity of his motives. I have had too long a knowledge of his character, too long an experience of his conduct, to doubt the truth of his assertion, that he is actuated by nothing but a sense of duty and a re gard to the dignity of our proceedings. I therefore disclaim any design to throw the slightest imputation on the conduct of the noble earl. I declared myself to be against delay, because I knew that it would be used, not by the noble earl, or by any of your lordships, but by persons out of doors, to inflame and irritate the public mind. I said so distinctly [cries of No]. I think I said so; but if any of your lordships misunderstood me, I am glad to have this opportunity to set myself right. I hope that no peer will join in any such attempts as I denounced; but that such attempts have been made, and are still making, to excite the passions of the people to a degree which, if successful, will be most disastrous, I did maintain, and to whatever imputations it may expose me, I will still continue to maintain. At the same time I repeat, that I had not any intention to impute the slightest blame to the noble earl. The motion of adjournment was withdrawn. The Bishop of St. David's presented several petitions from Wales against further concession to the Catholics. The right reverend prelate said, he could not agree in the prayer of the petitions; for he thought the time was arrived when a subject which had been so long agitated should be set at rest. He would give his support to the measures before the House, because he thought the admission of Roman Catholics to civil privileges was not only not incompatible with the maintenance of the constitution and the Protestant establishments of the country, but would tend to strengthen those establishments, by uniting all parties in attachment to the constitution and establishments of the country. ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.] On the motion of the duke of Wellington, the order of the day was read for the second reading of this bill. The order of the day being accordingly read, The Duke of Wellington rose and addressed their lordships as follows:It is now my duty to move your lordships to read this bill a second time, and to explain to your lordships the grounds on which I recommend this measure to your lordships' attention. I may be under the necessity of requesting a larger portion of your time and attention, upon this occasion, than I have hitherto been in the habit of doing; but I assure you, my lords, that it is not my intention to take up one instant of your time with respect to myself, or my own conduct in this transaction, any further than to express my regret, that I should differ in opinion on this subject from so many of those for whom I entertain the highest respect and regard. I must, however, state, that I consider the part which I have taken upon this subject as the performance of a public duty, absolutely incumbent upon me; and I will say, that no private regard, no respect for the opinion of any noble lord, could induce me to depart from the course which I have considered it my duty to adopt. I must likewise say this-that, comparing my own opinions with that of others, upon this subject, I have, during the period I have been in office, had opportunities of forming a judgment upon this subject, which others have not possessed; and they will admit, that I should not have given the opinion I have given, if I was not intimately and firmly persuaded that that opinion was a just one. My lords, the point which I shall first bring under your lordships' consideration is the state of Ireland. I know that, by some, it has been considered that the state of Ireland has nothing to do with this question--that it is a subject which ought to be left entirely out of our consideration. My lords, they tell us, that Ireland has been disturbed for the last thirty yearsthat it is a disturbance we have been accustomed to-and that therefore it does not at all alter the circumstances of the case, as they have hitherto appeared to this House. My lords, it is perfectly true that Ireland has been disturbed during the long period I have stated; but within the last year or two political circumstances have, in no small degree, occasioned that agitation. Besides that, my lords, I must say,-although I have no positive legal proof of the fact, I have every reason to believe, that there has been a considerable organization of the people, for the purposes of mischief. My lords, this organization is, it appears to me, to be proved, not only by the declarations of these who formed and who arranged it, but likewise by the effects which it has produced in the election of churchwardens throughout the country-in the circumstances attending the election for the county of Clare-in the circumstances that preceded and followed that election-in the proceedings |