possessions in part was put an end to,-the work of emancipation was done, the loss to the proprietors was certain. I trust, therefore, that this House is too just,-I will not say too generous,—but too just to pass resolutions which shall have the moral effect of an Act of Parliament, and then refuse to give its sanction to an Act which is to give compensation for the loss necessarily occasioned by carrying these resolutions into effect.

I distinctly stated when I introduced the measure, and I do not shrink from avowing it now, that I consider the period of apprenticeship to be part of the compensation to be paid the proprietor. At the same time, I am ready to state distinctly--and do not let me be misunderstood upon the point-I am ready to admit to the fullest extent, that when Honourable Gentlemen in this House assented to the principle of apprenticeship, they did not thereby bind themselves to the term or period for which that apprenticeship should endure. The principle only was assented to; the term was left open; and it is perfectly competent and perfectly consistent for any Gentleman who voted for the principle of apprenticeship, to vote for shortening the period to which it shall extend, so long as to whatever limit he shall reduce it, he leaves it a period of real and bond fide apprenticeship. When the Government, as a government-for I separate the Government from the House of Commons in this matter--when the Government brought forward, upon their responsibility, this great and important question, they brought it forward not without consideration of the interests deeply involved in this country, and other countries, some of which they had not had the same opportunity of consulting;-and I feel that I need not press upon the House that this is not a question merely between the West India proprietors and the Government, but a question in which the interests of many persons, resident in this country, are closely and deeply concerned. Gentlemen have only to look each around his own individual neighbourhood, to see whether there are not resident there some persons who, either directly or indirectly, are personally involved in the welfare and prosperity of the West Indies. The ground, then, upon which the Government felt it necessary to proceed, with respect to the compensation, was a ground composed of two separate calculations--the one being a calculation of the amount proper to be paid down, now, for the immediate remission of one-fourth of the labour of the negro; the other, a calculation of the sum which ought to be paid for the total remission of the whole of the labour of the negro at the end of twelve years. The sum thus to be paid as compensation to the colonists, has been taken, first, with reference to the estimated value of the slave at the present time; and, second, with reference to the interest which the amount of that value, in money, might bear for twelve years. Now, taking the value of the 800,000 slaves in the colonies at 30,000,000l., which was assumed as the ground of the calculation upon which we proceeded, an average of 371. 10s. will be given for each. It is impossible to come to any minute calculation, or to ascertain, with anything approaching to

perfect accuracy, what the real value of a slave is; but I believe, when we take 37. 10s. a-head, we do not take an exaggerated calculation of the average value.

It so happened, however, that, last year, or the year before, a Commission was issued for the purpose of distributing a loan granted by this House to the colonies, and one of the objects of that Commission was, to ascertain, by query upon oath, what was the value of slaves in the different islands? The result of these queries, addressed to the proprietors of twenty-four different estates in Jamaica, comprising upwards of 5000 slaves, gives an average value of something more than 40l. a-head. In St. Lucia and Barbadoes, the average is rather less, being about 381. 10s.; but, generally speaking, in most of the islands, the average is between 40l. and 501. We also endeavoured to ascertain what was the average amount for which slaves sold at the judicial sales which had taken place in the different islands for a considerable time back. I find that, in the five years ending December 1830, 472 slaves were sold in Jamaica for the payment of taxes. It is quite clear that a slave so sold does not go for the full value; yet the average price for which each of these 472 slaves sold was 357. 10s. sterling. In Barbadoes, the average price upon the judicial sales is rather below 30l. ; but in Trinidad it is 36l. 10s. I do not state this for the purpose of shewing that we can arrive, with any accuracy, at the value of the slaves; but to shew the House that in assuming 371. 10s. as the average value, we have not been proceeding upon an extravagant calculation.

I am afraid I am wearying the House by entering into this detail; but after the manner in which the Honourable Gentleman has mixed up the two questions of compensation and apprenticeship, I am bound to shew how, in the calculation upon which we have proceeded, the period of apprenticeship is to form part of the compensation to the master.

Mr. FRYER.-Why are we to pay anything?

Mr. SECRETARY STANLEY.-The Honourable Gentleman asks me a very short and a very pithy question-" Why are we to pay anything?" My answer is because the principles of justice require that we should not take away a man's property without remunerating him for it because the laws of England have recognized the property which we are now taking away-because we are taking it away without the consent of the owners, and in a mode which may be peculiarly-I will not say offensive, but peculiarly-calculated to hurt their feelings, and to injure their interests; and, lastly, because, acting upon those principles of justice upon which, I trust, the House of Commons always will act, it will not, in this instance, after declaring that emancipation shall take place, attempt to carry that declaration into effect without giving compensation to those who may suffer by it. But to return to the point to which I was directing the attention of the House. I was speaking of the difficulty at coming at the exact value of the slaves, and at the amount of loss which the proposed measure would occasion to the owner. There are so

many small circumstances to be taken into the calculation, that if an error be made with respect to any one of these, the result of the whole calculation may be greatly wide of the truth. In the first place, however, one-fourth of the labour of the negro is to be taken from the master, and placed at the disposal of the negro himself; but, for the remaining three-fourths of his labour, the master is to maintain him. Now, the maintenance, taken at what I am sure must be considered a very moderate average, is calculated at 27. 10s. a-head. This, for 800,000 negroes, would give 2,000,000l. a-year, and the one-fourth of this would be 500,000l., which, at the end of twelve years would make an enormous difference in the sum to be paid to the master. I merely mention this to shew how the omission, or non-consideration of a very small item, may change the character of the whole calculation. Then we are to take into consideration what the interest of the money is to be; because upon that depends how much the amount you are now buying will be worth at the end of any definite period. Before you decide what precise sum you ought to pay for the maintenance of the slave, you must decide the point of whether you will take the rate of interest at as high as 10 per cent., or as low as 6 per cent. According to the calculation that I have made, supposing we take 30,000,000l. as the value of the whole, or 371. 10s. as the average value of each slave, in the colonies, and calculate the interest of money upon that sum at 6 per cent., the sum you would have to pay, as representing the property of the masters which you are now taking from the slave, would be about 27,000,000l. But if you take the value of the slaves at only 24,000,000l., by the interest of money at 10 per cent., then you reduce the sum to be paid to the master to 15,000,000l., exclusive of the cost of maintenance, which in twelve years would amount to between 3,000,000l. and 4,000,000l. These are really the strict grounds upon which the calculation has been made, of the sum which ought to be paid to the master, now, for his certain present and certain prospective loss; and the Honourable Gentleman will not fail to see how very materially the amount of the period of apprenticeship enters into all the calculations with regard to the value of what we are taking from the master. But the Honourable Gentleman says, that no man will work who has not one of two stimulants— either the stimulant of hope or the stimulant of fear; and upon this ground he contends, that if you expect to obtain labour from the negro, you must either make him entirely free, and give him adequate wages, or else keep him in a state of absolute and uncontrolled corporal coercion. "By the scheme which you now propose," adds the Honourable Gentleman, "you place him in neither the one nor the other of these situations." I admit that, to the fullest extent, the scheme does not place the negro in either the one or the other of these situations; but with all due respect to the Honourable Gentleman, I maintain that to a certain extent it gives him the advantage of both. It takes away from the master the capricious exercise of the whip-prevents him from gratifying any vindictive or malignant feeling towards the slave, by inflicting the lash

at his own discretion; but at the same time, it takes from the slave the feeling of perfect impunity, by transferring the power of inflicting punishment to the magistrate, on complaint being made, and the offence being proved.

But when the Honourable Gentleman speaks of the necessity of having hope or fear operating as stimulants to labour, does he recollect the condition of apprentices in this country? When he says that there never has been an instance in any civilized country, of men having worked, except under the stimulant of either hope or fear, I ask, how many there are in this country in the state of apprenticeship, who, if the Honourable Gentleman's doctrine be admitted, are working without the stimulant of either hope or fear? They are apprentices-How? By contract. Who made the contract? Not they; they were probably not even consulted--they were bound by their parents, if they had any, or by the parish officers, if they had none. They have not the stimulus of hope in the way that the Honourable Gentleman puts it, for wages they have none; on the other hand they have not the stimulus of fear, because absolute punishment cannot be inflicted upon them, except to a very limited degree.

Mr. FRYER. The law protects them.

Mr. SECRETARY STANLEY.—True; but in this instance the question is not whether the law protects them,-that is not the argument of the Honourable Gentleman behind me. The Honourable Member who interrupts me entirely misunderstands the question. The Honourable Member for Weymouth says, "to obtain labour from the negro you must flog him to within an inch of his life, or else you must give him free wages." That argument, I say, is not borne out by the fact, because there are persons in this country who are bound for a long time to work for a master, who work not for wages,—who are under the dominion, not of a master to inflict corporal punishment upon them, but under the power and protection of the law,--under which law I propose to place the negroes, who are now in a state of slavery. It is no answer to me, to say that these men might earn high wages if they were in a different state. I am not going into the abstract principles upon which the Honourable Gentleman would contend that you have no right to keep any man subject to any conditions, except such as are imposed upon him by the laws of nature. That is overstating the subject altogether,we are to deal not with abstract principles, but with realities,we are to look at the artificial state of society which has grown up under the sanction of the Legislature of this country, at the peculiar species of property, in which capital to an immense amount, also under the sanction of the British Legislature, has been vested; and at the very dear and very expensive rate at which the working population of the colonies, if left to themselves, would only consent to labour in some of those branches of cultivation which it is most essential to keep up. Looking, then, at the question as prudent and political men, are we not bound, at the time that we are taking essential steps to alter a state of society which we think ought no longer to be

suffered to exist,-are we not bound to see that we do not make that alteration in such a way as to ruin those whose capital has been embarked under the existing system, and whose fortunes are wholly dependent upon the course which we now take? If we find, then, that the state of society in the colonies is such, or has been such, that labour, at its natural price, cannot be employed with advantage, is it not better to sacrifice something of these abstract principlessomething of these wild though benevolent theories, and to set ourselves calmly and seriously to work, to put into practical and safe operation an experiment which, without exaggeration, I may say is more mighty, as well as more important and more interesting in its results, than any experiment ever attempted to be carried into effect by any nation in any period of the history of the world? Then, let us ask the West Indians what they say upon the subject. Do the proprietors consider this apprenticeship as a matter of no consequence to them? Far from it; they one and all say, that, without it, they have no hope of being able to continue to cultivate their estates. They say, that unless you provide that the negro shall be bound for a term to the planter, that we shall be obliged to give to those who now possess him, a certain portion of his labour; unless you allow the proprietor, for a certain period, to have the benefit of his labour upon better terms than he could otherwise procure it; you will at once sacrifice the welfare of those great and important, and once opulent colonies-will condemn a large number of your own countrymen to beggary and ruin-must be prepared to see the whole frame of society and of civilization in the West Indies overthrown; and a new state arise, which, however it may ultimately seem to be a more perfect state of freedom, must begin, if not in slavery, at least in pauperism.-This is the statement that is made to us, and I believe that I am not prepared to run so great and fearful a risk. I say it is for the benefit of the negroes themselves that such a risk should not be run. It is desirable that they should see that the strong hand which has been pressing upon them so long is not at once to be removed; and that, with the passing of this measure, they are not to be placed altogether beyond the control of the law. Have I ever denied that the slaves, if freed to-morrow, would be able to maintain themselves? No; it is true that I have indulged in no such wild imaginings as the Honourable Gentleman upon this point; but I believe, that in most of the islands-with the exception, indeed, of those where every inch of the soil is occupied, and where, unless the slaves obtained leave to remain on the estates, they certainly would have no means whatever of maintaining themselves: but, with these exceptions,--and I believe they would be few,-I have no doubt that the negroes would be able to maintain themselves; to raise sufficient to supply all the wants of the moment; perhaps to secure some of the comforts and luxuries of life. But then, I say that you go as far as legislation can go to put a stop to their hopes of rising higher; and I further maintain, that in thus at once changing their condition, and leaving them, without the intervention of any preparatory state,