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that has intervened, and upon his Majesty's Ministers rests the blame of all the confusion in which West Indian affairs at present stand.

EARL GREY.-I certainly do not rise to prolong this debate, and therefore I shall not be prevailed upon by any thing which has fallen from Noble Lords, to enter at this moment into the consideration of this important question; and however anxious I may be to have it settled, I am still as anxious that all the circumstances connected with it should be carefully examined, and the co-operation of all parties interested procured. However easy and popular it may be to attack Ministers for delay, I am content to submit to any imputation of that kind, provided that I avoid the greater danger of precipitation, of which the only result can be an unsatisfactory and unsafe settlement of the question. As to the communications that have taken place between Government and other parties on this subject, I do not think that the Noble Duke will impute it as a crime to us that we have endeavoured to ascertain the opinions of the West Indian body, and to obtain their co-operation in a work which is beset with difficulty and danger. The Noble Duke complains that the Government has communicated with a select portion of the West Indian proprietors. How would he have had the Government act? Would he have had the Ministers go to a general assembly,—to a meeting at Exeter-hall or elsewhere, and there publicly declare their intentions? All that Ministers could do was to consult those privately whom they knew to be opposed to them, but in whom they had the greatest confidence, in order to ascertain in what way their objections could be met. Of course it would be inconsistent with my duty to throw out any hint respecting the nature of any plan which it may be in the contemplation of Ministers to propose. All I will say at present is, that the attention of Government generally, and of my Noble Friend near me, has been directed carefully to this great subject, with a view to bring it as speedily as possible to a satisfactory settlement. I cannot say what the rumours are to which my Noble Friend has alluded; for such rumours the Government are not responsible, and it cannot be expected that they should enter into any explanation with respect to them. To declare immediate emancipation would undoubtedly make short and easy work of the matter, but I confess that that is not the way in which I wish to deal with the question; and I am glad to hear from my Noble Friend's explanation that the word "immediate" is not to be taken as meaning immediate, but the earliest period at which emancipation can take place with safety to all the interests concerned. In that sentiment, my Lords, I most entirely concur. I am anxious for the abolition of

slavery, but confess that I cannot hope to arrive at immediate abolition. I wish the abolition to be effected at as early a period as possible, consistently with the safety of all parties concerned,-more particularly of those unfortunate persons whose relief it is our more immediate object to accomplish. Finally, my Lords, I must declare my fixed conviction, that there is no use in pressing forward with premature questions on this subject on the contrary, such a course can only tend to embarrass the matter still further.

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The DUKE of BUCKINGHAM.-The Noble Lord having stated that the delay was the fault of the West Indian proprietors, I think it right to assure him, that in that respect he has been misinformed, the West Indian interests being, in fact, most anxious for immediate inquiry.

The DUKE of RICHMOND.-I rise to contradict the statement made by the Noble Peer, that differences exist between his Majesty's Ministers on this subject. That I most distinctly and unequivocally deny-no such difference or dispute, whatever, has taken place.

LORD SUFFIELD.—My remark on the subject of the delay and its origin seems to me to have been entirely borne out by what has been elicited in the course of the discussion. Ministers have always expressed their wish to consult the West India proprietors; and I maintain that their opposition to a reasonable proposition from the Government has caused delay. At the same time I must guard myself from the supposition that I meant to convey a charge, that delay was the object of the West India interests: what I meant to say was, that delay was the result and inevitable consequence of their proceedings. Noble Lords opposite have been their allies in this respect. I am quite borne out in my statement of the result of the conduct of the West India proprietors by the Noble Viscount (Goderich). I am reminded by a Noble Friend of a circumstance which, if I wished to make a speech, ought not to be forgotten,namely, that the whole conduct of the West India proprietors, from the very commencement, has manifested a contumacious opposition to Government, that the effect of such conduct has been to produce delay,—and that the papers sent to Members of Parliament, making out a case of property in slaves, prove that the West Indian proprietors are still contumacious in resisting the proposed measure,that they produce delay, while the people of England are entirely out of patience on the subject;-and that till this hour, the West Indians have endeavoured to procrastinate the extinction of slavery. The Noble Earl at the head of the Government says, that I evidently intended that the word "immediate" should not mean immediate in reference to this subject: I beg to explain my meaning. I opposed "immediate" to "prospective.' I meant to say that measures should be immediately undertaken with a view to accomplish an object which is not to be considered as a prospective object. Measures short of this will not satisfy the people. For instance, a measure of this sort "that from and after the 1st of January, 1835, every person shall be free," would, in my opinion, be objectionable. That prospective emancipation would not be satisfactory. The country calls for immediate measures,-I mean, for measures to be immediately instituted for the accomplishment of the object at no remote period, and without unreasonable delay. Ministers should not suppose that I wish to make them responsible for rumours, or what appears in the newspapers; but when things so appear, an effect is produced on the public mind, and my object is to counteract that effect, in so far as it may be of an injurious tendency, and to afford Ministers an opportunity of remedying the mischief. You

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will find that a general protest will be entered by the people as soon as the rumours to which I have alluded shall be generally circulated. I repeat-I do not impute responsibility to Ministers on this head, but as an individual, I have a right to act on rumours, and it is my duty to combat those rumours at the earliest possible opportunity. I now present a petition to your Lordships for the immediate abolition of slavery, from Glasgow. It is signed by 31,172 individuals, and appears well worthy your Lordships' serious consideration.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH.-The Noble Baron is pleased to speak of Noble Lords on this side of the House, who take a part in West India affairs, as causing delay. This imputation I beg leave to deny. We look on the West India interest as only partly to be considered in the examination of this great question—the interests of the people of England being as deeply concerned in it-and I may add that I am quite sure his Majesty's Ministers take an incorrect view of the subject, if they do not think the interests of the slaves themselves still more deeply involved, and infinitely more concerned, in having the question disposed of without any rash or precipitate proceeding. LORD SUFFIELD.-I assure the Noble Baron that I used the words, of which he complains, inadvertently; at the same time I may say, that it has so happened that every word that has been uttered here in favour of slavery, has come from the Noble Baron's side of the House.

MONDAY, APRIL 1.

Lord SuffielD.-I have several petitions to present to your Lordships on the subject of colonial slavery; and they contain, generally, the same prayer as those which I have presented on a former occasion-namely, for the total and immediate abolition of slavery. I am quite ready to concur in opinion with the Noble Earl, as regards immediate emancipation; because, if I did not misunderstand that Noble Earl, he said,—on a former night,—that he thought emancipation ought to take place, "as soon as it could with safety be accomplished." I dwell, my Lords, upon these words, because they have been misrepresented-whether wilfully or not I do not know. In common fairness, therefore, to the Noble Earl as well as to his Majesty's Government, I now repeat that his words were "that he thought emancipation ought to take place as soon as it could with safety be accomplished." As regards the phrase "immediate emancipation," I must be permitted, in justice to the Anti-Slavery Society, to trouble your Lordships with the explanation which that Society has given of their definition of it; and I am glad to see so full an attendance of Noble Lords when I am to state the orthodox definition of the expression so employed by the society. Now the question put to them was-"What is meant by immediate emancipation?" This is their answer :

"The right of property in man must be entirely, and for ever extinguished. No third party must be allowed to interfere between man and his Maker. Freedom of conscience, and personal liberty, without which freedom of conscience cannot exist,

must be secured upon solid foundations. That accountableness to himself, which the Creator has imposed upon every created being, must not be controlled by any human power. This, in our view, implies the removal of every restraint upon liberty, not essential to the well-being of society; but it is not inconsistent with the rigorous enforcement of every obligation which members of society owe to each other. We therefore insist upon the necessity of substituting for the present authority of the master, a system of legal constraint, of equal, if not superior vigour; and of maintaining that system by regulations of police, as severe as the case may require. In a word, we would abolish slavery, but we would establish law. We would supersede the private cart-whip, and replace it by the magisterial tread-mill; the magistrate, and not the irresponsible owner, must be the judge of what shall constitute offence; and a jury, not an overseer, must pronounce whether such offence has been committed. The protection, as well as the punishment of law, must also be administered by authority equally removed from suspicion. Any man who can object to immediate abolition, thus explained, is unconscious and grossly ignorant of the privileges which he himself, as an Englishman, enjoys."

Such, my Lords, are the views of the Anti-Slavery Society as regards "immediate emancipation;" and I will further illustrate them by saying that, suppose the case of the invasion, or apprehended invasion of this country,-if his Majesty's Government were to give orders that barracks should be immediately built, it would not imply that they were to be erected by to-morrow morning, but as soon as the necessary arrangements could be effected for their completion. All that is meant by immediate emancipation is, that as soon as a new system can be established, the old one shall be superseded. I have thought it necessary to enter into this explanation, because nothing can be so monstrous-nothing so absurd as to suppose that emancipation is to follow absolutely, upon the firing of a gun, or the sailing of a ship. It can only be effected by imposing legal restraints upon the irresponsible authority of the master at the earliest possible period; and I beg to inform your Lordships that the Anti-Slavery Society took every possible precaution to disabuse the public mind on this point of immediate emancipation upon which they have been much misrepresented. The explanation which I have read to your Lordships was sent to 1250 correspondents, with a request, in every case, to have it inserted in the provincial newspapers. It was published, besides, six times in the Times newspaper, six times in the Morning Herald, and once, or oftener, in other daily and weekly papers. In addition to this, it was distributed in 54,000 hand-bills over all parts of the country. There is one of these petitions, the prayer of which varies in a slight degree from that of the others; for it prays that "immediate steps may be taken," a mode of expression which is, in fact, synonymous with the definition given by the Anti-Slavery Society, of "immediate emancipation." I am sure your Lordships will feel

that it is the duty of every Noble Lord, on presenting petitions, and recording his concurrence in their prayer, to be sure that he understands the meaning of the words they contain, and this must be my apology for offering any explanation like that into which I have been entering. There is one word in a petition which I have now in my hand, that is, perhaps, of doubtful import; and, therefore, I shall put my own construction upon it-and that is the word "unconditional." I do not mean to fix any construction of this word upon the petitioners; but I say that, in my view, it will bear the same definition and qualification as the word “immediate,” total, immediate, and unconditional emancipation. But the word "unconditional" may have another meaning: if it has, I only stand committed to that word, as I stand committed to the words "total and immediate emancipation." I am not responsible for the English of this or any other petition. The first petition comes from the inhabitants of the very populous town of Oldham.

LORD ELLENBOROUGH.-I beg to speak on this petition, for the purpose of expressing my surprise at the practice pursued by the Noble and Learned Lord, who, whenever he finds there is a tolerably full attendance of your Lordships, takes the opportunity of bringing forward this question, in which he is so particularly interested. I think, my Lords, when there is such a full attendance of Noble Lords as there is at present in the House, who have come down for the purpose of considering a most important measure— the urgency of which no one doubts-it would be better for the Noble Baron to allow them to proceed with that business, and take some other opportunity for entering into the consideration of abstract principles, and advancing such doctrines as those which he has read to the House. I do not think that the conduct of the Noble Lord is very reasonable in that respect; and I venture to ask him whether, with a view to his own object, it would not be more convenient that the discussion of the Slavery question should take place on a specific motion, when the House could go fully into its consideration, rather than that a debate should be created in this demi-official and incidental manner (if anything that can fall from the Noble Baron can raise a debate). A regular specific motion would enable your Lordships to come to some conclusive opinion on this certainly interesting, but most difficult question. I cannot tell to what extent we are to go into the consideration of abstract principles, propounded by this Anti-Slavery Society; I will venture to say that the construction put upon the words used by them and by the petitioners, by the Noble Baron, is such as was never affixed to such words by any other English gentleman before him. I was quite alarmed, for my part, when I heard the Noble Baron's construction of the word "immediate;" because if we do not understand the true intent and meaning of that word, then what word, used in common parlance, do we understand? I have referred to your Lordships' very valuable library, and I hold in my hand a volume, the authority of which I presume the Noble Baron will not dispute. I turn to the word "immediate," and the definition is

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