A DISPUTATION:

PROVING,

That it is not convenient to grant unto Ministers secular jurisdiction;

AND TO MAKE THEM

LORDS AND STATESMEN IN PARLIAMENT.

London: Printed in the year 1679. Quarto, containing thirty-six pages.

It is not expedient to grant unto Clergymen secular jurisdiction. 1. Do not undertake to prove that it is simply unlawful: and the worthy and judicious Bishop Davenant doth grant and assert, that the law of prudence and equity itself doth forbid kings to burden clergymen with it, so far as it will let and avocate them from their spiritual office and function.

2. It will be demanded, who must be judge what is, and what is not expedient? To which the forenamed Davenant makes answer, that is to be accounted expedient which a wise man shall so judge and determine; whereunto I assent. He afterwards adds, that which a wise and religious prince shall so determine. Neither do I dissent in this, provided it be soundly understood: for that which a wise and religious prince shall judge to be expedient, if it be so indeed, all wise men will, at least they ought so to think, for sound wisdom is the same in all: but it is too possible for the most wise and prudent prince to enjoin things not good and expedient. King David thought it most prudent to number the people, who was a most wise prince; but in that his wisdom failed him. Joab, his general, that was much inferior to David in good. ness and heavenly wisdom, thought it very imprudent; and the event proved Joab to be the wiser man in that.

3. Some things are more evidently, other things are less evidently expedient: the scales may hang so even and equilibrious, that a wise comparing judgment can scarce tell whether is the heavier end, and whether part hath the stronger reasons; and the scales may be so odd and unequal, so much solid reason may be said for the one side, and so little for the other, that, to a wise comparing judgment, the case is not doubtful to decide. Now I shall manifest that it is evidently inex. pedient to grant secular jurisdiction to ministers and clergymen, that is, that the same person be a minister, bishop, or pastor of souls, and a magistrate, or coercive judge, one that beareth the sword, Rom. xiii. 4.

4. Arg. I. Jesus Christ did not see it meet to exercise any such power while he was upon earth; being moved to be a kind of worldly judge between two brethren, he refused, saying, Who made me a judge or a divider over you? Luke xii. 14. As if he should say, says Davenant upon the words, neither by divine nor by human ordination do I

exercise judiciary power over private persons, much less over kings: by which argument the same Davenant goes about to prove the nullity of the pope's power in temporals. Now, if his argument be of force against the bishop of Rome, I see not but it is of equal force against worldly jurisdiction in all bishops and pastors whatsoever. Now, if Christ saw it not meet for him to exercise worldly jurisdiction, methinks all bishops and pastors of souls, who have their office and calling particularly from him, should see it meet to learn of him and imitate him herein, and princes themselves should not think it expedient to burden ministers with that, which Christ himself refused, and put from him, as either unlawful in itself, or inexpedient. Mat. xi. 29, Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me.'

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5. Arg. II. The apostles, and the successors of the apostles, the bishops and pastors of the churches for the space of three hundred years unto the time of Constantine, had no temporal jurisdiction, nor did exercise any. And those are counted the best and purest times of the church. If we may not make the apostles of Christ, and their immediate successors, the bishops and pastors of the churches for the first three hundred years, our pattern, what shall we make our pattern, and by what law and rule shall we determine what is, and what is not expedient? Can we better govern ourselves and the churches than they? Have we more wisdom to invent and find out ways of good governing the church than they had? Have we more holiness, and goodness, and faithfulness to God, ourselves, our calling, and the church, than they had? If the church did well, and best subsisted when it had no magistrates but what were pagan, infidel, and Jewish, many of whom were great persecutors, all of them deniers of the Christian name: will it not well and better subsist, if better can be, where magistrates are Christian, and defenders of the faith, if bishops and pastors, contenting themselves with no more but the episcopal and pastoral office, and refusing all worldly jurisdiction, shall wisely and faithfully behave themselves in their office, as those first and most ancient bishops and pastors of the churches did?

6. Unto this, the worthy Davenant makes answer, that those times and ours are not alike. Those times were exceeding holy and good, ours are exceeding bad. There needed no secular authority in pastors then; there was so much holiness and piety, the word and discipline were abundantly enough; but now the Christian world is so exceeding corrupt and degenerate, that, unless ministers be armed with secular jurisdiction, their authority will be despised, and the discipline, which God hath appointed to be in his church, will be scorned as base and contemptible, rather than be reverenced for any good it will do: non tam usui esse, quam ludibrio, those are his very words. Davenant is the man whom I do highly esteem, and so do all that are wise and knowing in the things of God; but, in this, Davenant hath fallen much. below himself; and the feebleness of his reasoning doth much confirm me, in my judgment and persuasion, that the cause which he oppugneth, and which I do here defend, is too strong to be overthrown.

7. His answer is partly not true, not to say it is directly and flatly false for, let any impartial man make a due estimate of things, and

compare the pastors and churches under the apostles (I except the persons of the apostles themselves) and, during their abode upon earth, and their successors the pastors and churches immediately following to the time of Constantine; I say, compare these with the pastors and churches of our times, and it will be found that there is no such ine. quality as he suggests. Bradford and Philpot, and Rogers, and Cran mer, and Latimer, and Ridley, and Hooper, and Bilney, and Sanders, and other of the English martyrs were worthy and famous martyrs of Christ, as well as were those first and most ancient martyrs. And Grindal, and Jewel, and Usher, and Davenant, and Gataker, and Vines, and Hildesham, and Preston, and Sibbs, and Dod, and Joseph Allen, and many more of our own and foreign divines were able to vie with the ancient bishops and pastors of the churches, such as died not martyrs. And the private Christians, and families, and congregations of our times, are not much inferior to those ancient ones both Greek and Latin, and even to those we have mention of in the New Testa ment, namely, the seven churches of Asia, those of Galatia, and Judea, that at Corinth, and others.

8. Admit it were true, which, questionless, is not: I should rather think, that the way to reduce an unreformed church and people from heresy and unholiness, to soundness in the faith and holiness, is for pastors to content themselves with the work of pastors, and give themselves wholly to it, aud suffer no lets. Will the sword convert souls, or awe men's consciences? Would it likely do more good, if a minister should come into the pulpit with a sword in one hand, and a Bible in the other? The sword is not appointed of God for the conversion of souls; the office of the magistrate is to make way for the work and office of the minister. It is the sword of the spirit which is the word of God, which must cut in pieces men's lusts, and breed in them sound faith, holiness, and reformation, and not the sword of the magistrate. Let the magis

trate do or not do his duty, let him be pagan or persecutor, and let the people be more loose and unreformed than they are, let but pastors and ministers do their duty well, and we shall soon see that God's word and discipline is of the same force now that ever it hath been, otherwise there is a change in God, and his promise fails, and Satan is stronger now than he hath been, and Christ and the Holy Ghost are much weaker. Read and consider well these scriptures, (Mat. xxviii. 18, 19, 20. 1 Pet. iii. 13. Mich. ii. 7. Isa. xlv. 19.-xlix. 4, 5. 1 Cor. xv. 58. Psal. lxxxiv. 11. 2 Cor. ii. 15, 16. 2 Cor. iv. 1, 2. 2 Cor. x. 4, 5, 6.) to name no more, and let but ministers be wise and faithful, and try if it be not the best and speediest way to reform what is amiss in the church, contenting themselves with no more but their own office, and leaving all force and secular authority to the magistrate.

9. If we be the same that the ancient pastors were, be sure God and God's word will be the same; we cannot do God's part, nor the magistrate's part, nor the people's part, we can only do our own part, which we may do, if we will; do our own part, and be sure God will be with us and do his. What hinders but pastors may be as wise and holy as they have been of old? If we be not, it is our own fault. The more corrupt the times are, the more need pastors have to bestir themselves,

and to double their diligence, and lay out themselves more vigorously, to be more exemplary, to abound in the work of God, to be mortified, to lose no time, to suffer no let. To make them magistrates were to let them, and take away much of their time, and rather hinder and distract, than further them. If the pastor's office be as much as they can wisely and faithfully do, would it further them in their work to have another office and work added to them? Ministers of the gospel are not so fit as others to be worldly coercive judges and secular magistrates. For their office is purely pastoral, and is to have no terror in it, but the terror of God's word, and spiritual denunciations, that the people may have no temptations to withdraw their love and esteem from their pastors. A thief at the bar had rather have a minister, than the judge, to reprove him, though both should pronounce the same truth, and hit upon the same words, and have equal wisdom and integrity. For properly magistrates are for outward terror to evil doers, and for outward defence and protection to them that do well, Rom. xiii. 13. 1 Pet. ii. 14. But ministers are to be gentle to souls, even as a nurse cherisheth her children, and to exhort and comfort, and charge every one as a father doth his children, 1 Thes. ii. 7, 11. But, if parents and nurses, and tender mothers should rule their children by the sword too, that would not add to their office, nor further their work.

10. Arg. III. If it be so, as Davenant says, 'That, unless ministers be armed with secular jurisdiction, their office and authority in the church, and the Lord's word and discipline, as administered by them, will be despised and trod upon;' then necessarily all ministers should be made magistrates, and princes are to blame, if they do not put the sword into all their hands, and make every minister, throughout the nation, a justice of peace, or a sheriff, or a judge, by giving him power to imprison, and lay fines and penalties upon offenders, and to use coercive means. And then the scriptures themselves, even the wisdom of God will be found faulty, if he have ordained and appointed no such thing in all the Bible, as I no where find that he hath done. And, by the same reason, magistrates may say, they also must be ministers, and there will be a confusion of offices, and the bounds and banks of order in church and commonwealth will be thrown down; and, if order be not observed, good government cannot be. For good government is nothing but the observance of right order: when magistrates do the duty of magistrates, and meddle with no more but what comes within the compass of their office, that is right order, and it breeds peace, 1 Cor. xiv. 33. 40. And, when ministers and pastors do their duty, and what properly pertains to their office, meddling with no more, this also is right order, and the way of true and good government of the church, and produceth peace. But, if you leave this way and order, you err; and where your error may stop, and what mischiefs and inconveniencies it may produce, who is able to declare? For there is no safety, but by keeping in God's ways, and close walking by his rules: uno absurdo dato sequuntur mille, is as true in practicals, as in doctrinals.

11. Arg. IV. Either Christian faithful magistrates are a help and defence to God's church, and to ministers, in their calling and office, or they are not. If they are, then methinks, if the church and minis

ters did well, when they wanted such helps, they should rather do bet. ter, at least, they should do as well, or not be much worse, when they have such helps. But to say, they cannot do at all, or that ministers and their discipline, and ministration barely without secular jurisdiction added to them, will be of no use, but rather a scorn and mockery under Christian magistrates, is stark shame and reproach to all such ministers, and they should rather be cast out of the church as intolerable, and as dung and dead unsavoury salt, than be made magistrates. What should they do magistrates, that are not able, by all they can do, to preserve themselves from sordid ignominy and contempt? Or, if not this, it is an intolerable shame to all, excepting ministers, both magistrates and people, that they should be so extremely wicked and graceless, neither fearing God, nor regarding men, as to despise and scorn all the wise, and holy, and faithful pastors in the church, that are but mere pastors. According to this opinion, one of these two wickednesses and absurdities will follow; either, that all the pastors in the church, that are but mere pastors, are shamefully wicked and intolerable, and most unworthy to be pastors; or, that all besides in the church, that are no pastors, princes, rulers, and people, are extremely wicked, even scorners and contemners of God's ministers, worship, word, discipline, and holy institutions.

If Christian magistrates, and such as be faithful, be not a help and defence to God's church and ministers, in their office, then it is a contradiction to desire their office, as an help and expedient to the church, and that ministers might be armed with the authority of a magistrate too. And then it is no blessing, but rather a curse, to have faithful kings, princes, and magistrates, and then we should not pray for them; and then it were all one to have persecutors as protectors, Julian as Constantine, Nero, Dioclesian, Queen Mary, and bloody popes and tyrants, as Theodosius, Josias, Queen Elisabeth, and wise, and just, and faithful governors.

12. Arg. V. Either you would have pastors and their authority in the church reverenced, or you would not. If you would have them reverenced, what must it be for? You would have the same man to be a pastor and a magistrate, and so to be reverenced: very good. If, then, the same man as pastor be base and vile, and worthy of no reverence, how shall we do to reverence the same man as a magistrate ? Shall we say, that the same man is worthy and unworthy, vile and honourable, faithful and unfaithful? Will you say, that he hath two souls, or two consciences, one as a pastor, and so he is a worthless wretch, to be contemned of all; and the other as a magistrate, and so he is honourable, and to be had in esteem by all? If the same man as pastor be damned, what shall become of the same man as a magistrate ? If pastors be worthy men, all men will reverence and esteem them; at least, God will, and all that are taught and instructed of God. Even an Herod will reverence a John Baptist. Wisdom and holiness will be reverenced in all; and folly, and vice, and wickedness will be reve renced in none. But, especially, wisdom and holiness will be reve renced in pastors; and vice, and folly, and hypocrisy, and unfaithfulness will be thought not so odious and unsavoury in any, as in pastors