Doolittle, when he spoke, said that we were gaining strength, and that they were arming in the northwest; and learning that he belonged to a higher order, I, as a matter of course, supposed that he was in the higher order, and I began to doubt and think it was not all right in the higher order. Doolittle's statement. and being asked to join a higher order, or something else, (it was not Sons of Liberty or order of American Knights,) but I believe it was an organization similar to the Illini, but something more binding-it was that which first led me to suspect the order. The man who approached me upon the subject gave me a little book, giving the regulations and by-laws.

Q. I think you said you paid no attention to Doolittle's rattlehead talk? A. Others did not, but I did. The organization, as a body, did not pay any attention; but on Dr. Ayer, myself, and some few others, it did make an impres sion, to go on so outrageously. I asked Dr. Ayer what it meant, and he said he meant to find out; and it was in consequence of that the committee was appointed. I know I talked with Phelps and Strawn, and others, about Doolittle, and Strawn, I remember, said that we must not pay any attention to it, or words to that effect; that it amounted to nothing. Geary also advised in the same way, and I think Phelps condemned it, and was in favor of the committee; and a young man in a drug store, I remember, went right down to Dr. Ayer's office to canvass the matter.

Q. Have you not stated that Doolittle's speech caused the appointment of this committee?

A. The body voted the committee. I asked for the matter to be investigated, in referring to Doolittle's speech, and asked for information as to the strength of the order, &c., and a committee of three was appointed; but it was not necessarily granted in consequence of that speech.

Q. Then Doolittle was the moving cause of the appointment of the committee in that organization, was he?

A. He gave me the idea. Had he not made that speech I should not have asked for the committee; so that, in that sense, I did pay regard to what he said. Q. Did you make as bitter speeches as Doolittle?

A. No, sir; I made some pretty bitter speeches, but as to advocating anything unlawful, or arming for unlawful purposes, I never did. I spoke strongly against the administration, but I did that because I thought it was right. Q. What did you say of the soldiers?

A. I never said a word of disrespectful language to the soldiers in my life. I have two sons in the army-one crippled for life-and I hope I shall never be guilty of using a disrespectful word against the soldiers.

Q. Do you

know if the soldiers were not sometimes called Lincoln hirelings, or Lincoln satraps?

A. I presume they might have been; but it has been in this connection, that it don't apply to soldiers, but to officers. I have heard Burnside's officers, when he suppressed the Chicago Times, called Lincoln hirelings, or Lincoln satraps. (A letter was here offered in evidence by the judge advocate.

Objected to by the accused as being written long after the matters spoken of occurred, and as not being a legitimate cross-examination of matters not introduced in the examination in chief.

The court was cleared for deliberation.

The court being reopened, the judge advocate announced that objection was overruled.

The letter hereto attached, marked "M M," and made part of this record.) Q. What was the date at which you had the conversation with Colonel Sweet! A. From the 8th to the 12th of November.

Q. Then, when you told to your friend Spencer that you could find out if any arms were in the city, and you had promised Colonel Sweet you would do it,

why did you not inform him of the arms you had learned of from Ayer, Strawn, and Alexander?

A. For the reason that they had all been found at the barn of Mr. Walsh before I had had an interview with Colonel Sweet.

you

Q. Is it true, as stated in your letter, that, in your connection with the order, had "out-heroded Herod ?"

A. It was when I wrote that letter, and there is nothing there I deny. I was told that I would be arrested. Mr. Storey gave me a sober talking to; I was poor, and my family depended upon my services; and Mr. Spencer is, as I stated before, a Mason; I told him that if I found out there was anything treasonable in the order I would let him or Mr. Colfax know, and they could take the matter into their own hands. On the day on which I wrote this letter I found a letter on my desk, saying: "Your life is in danger, leave the city." I could not find out who had written this. I went to Ayer, and he advised me to leave; I did not want to leave, so I wrote to Spencer, as a last resort; he being a reliable man, I thought he would advise me. I adopted the name of the Sons of Liberty because it was after the arrest. It is true I told Colonel Sweet that if I could find any more arms in the city, I would tell him. Those arms, that I suggested should be carried off under the ladies' crinoline, were captured long before I had an interview with Colonel Sweet.

Q. When was it you told Spencer you would tell anything that you found out that was treasonable?

A. I do not know. Mr. Spencer is a strong republican, and he censured me very strongly; he told me it was an organized body against the administration, and I said, if they are, of course I will let you know.

Q. Why did you not keep your promise, and let Spencer know the members. were armed?

A. I did not know that they were; I had investigated the matter and could find out nothing. I tried to get arms myself and could not.

Q. Did you go to Walsh?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you try Geary?

A. I did. I heard that he had arms; Strawn told me. I never had any arms of my own. Just before the national convention at Chicago, they were expecting a regiment of Wisconsin troops, and Storey of the Times office got a notion that they were coming to sack the office, and he invited all the employés of the office to sit up all night and watch the office. I thought it unnecessary. During the evening this man Clark, from Urbana, came in and asked me if I had arms; I said I had not; they said there were arms in the building, and they went and got three navy revolvers and laid them upon my desk, with three boxes of cartridges, and when I went home I put one in my pocket. At another time Dr. Ayer gave me a navy revolver, and that is all the arms I have had anything to do with. Almost every one at this time was being armed, but as far as I was concerned, I thought the election would pass off quietly, and I only acted with the rest; but as for knowing of any rendezvous for arms, I knew nothing about it. Whenever I was told that there was a rendezvous for arms I tried to hunt them up, but always failed. I therefore concluded there was nothing in the rumor. I knew that the Douglas Escort were armed; there were two hundred of them; the general understanding and rumor was that they were to be armed. Q. Give to the court the signs and pass-words of the order of the Illini. A. I would with the utmost pleasure if I knew them. When I went in, they said when I came to the door I was to say "Illini," and as I did not go for some time, when I said " Illini" they said that was played out and I could not get in. A few weeks afterwards I got into a similar trap, but I gave my name and was admitted. At the initiation they read a kind of charge from a book and made me promise that I would not develop anything. I was then taken to the north

side and a man there said I was too far north; I then went to the other side, and they said I was getting too far south. After getting me on a straight line, something was read from a book. The reading in the ante-room to the promise or obligation seemed all right. The regular officer was not there; they were only boys there, and the balance of the ceremony was left until some other time. Something was said as a hailing word or sign of distress, which he explained, "Oak-own" or something of that kind; he said a person inflating the lungs and holding the head back could make a very loud noise. But very little was said, and as I paid very little attention to it, it soon escaped my memory. Q. Why did Mr. Storey scold you?

A. For belonging to this society. One night I went down to the office and found an invitation to walk into Mr. Storey's room; he said, "You are compromised with this conspiracy." This was shortly after the arrests. "What the devil," said he, "did you go into this sort of thing? I thought you had some intelligence." He had a note written on reporter's paper seemingly, and he said, "I have a note from Colonel Sweet in regard to you, and he said you had better leave; this is his advice, and this is my advice." I said, "I am not one of the running kind," and I said I would go and see Colonel Sweet, which I did. Mr. Storey is a very abrupt man, a man of very few words. I went to see Colonel Sweet and set the matter all right.

By the court:

Q. Was there any threat or offer made by Colonel Sweet to make you reveal the secrets of the order of the Illini or Sons of Liberty?

A. No, sir; he treated me very much like a gentleman, and there was nothing of the kind.

Q. Had you any other conversations with Dr. Ayer save the one that has been referred to ?

A. I have had, I think, two or three conversations, all in reference to the testimony that is given here.

Q. Did you go there for the purpose of leaving any money with him?
A. Never, sir.

Q. Never for any purpose?

A. Yes, sir; there was one time that I went there as a committee on Masonic Lodge; that was the only time. I never went to Dr. Ayer to solicit money for any other purpose. Dr. Ayer has called upon me to solicit money, but I never asked him for a single cent except for charitable purposes.

By ROBERT HERVEY, Esq.:

Q. When you became uneasy about the objects of this organization, as you have testified, in consequence of hearing those speeches of Doolittle, and hearing that they were superior orders, did you not in consequence of that have this committee raised?

A. Yes, sir, I stated that.

Q. When this committee was raised and you made a speech or remarks, which were followed by Dr. Ayer making other remarks which called up the speech of Judge Morris, were you, after Judge Morris spoke, satisfied that there was nothing treasonable in the order?

A. It did certainly satisfy me. I never had any idea that there was any thing treasonable in the order, but that there might be some higher order in which there was something treasonable.

Q. Then did what Judge Morris said satisfy you on this point?

A. It did.

THOMAS DRUMMOND, a witness for the accused, was then introduced, and being duly sworn by the judge advocate, testified as follows:

By ROBERT HERVEY, Esq., counsel for Judge Morris :

Q. Please to state your name, residence, and official position.

A. Thomas Drummond; residence, Chicago; I am judge of the United States district court for the northern district of Illinois, which position I have occupied

for fifteen years.

Q. State if you know Judge Morris, and if so, how long you have known him? A. I met Judge Morris, I believe, in the spring of 1835; I am certain I have known him for twenty-five years. I have known him as a citizen, an acquaintance, a friend, as a practising attorney, and as judge of a State court.

Q. Have you any knowledge of his character among his neighbors in the community in which he resides, as a man of humane and kind disposition; if so, please state what it is.

A. I think he is a remarkably humane and kind-hearted man; a man easily touched in his feelings by the sufferings of other people.

Q. Have you frequently heard Judge Morris speak? If so, state what are his peculiarities.

A. I have frequently. His style of speaking is what might be called an extravagant or exaggerated style. He is not very choice in his use of words, and not always grammatical. He is somewhat addicted to cant terms and familiar and slang phrases in his speech. Sometimes his style of speaking is very much excited; he talks rapidly and occasionally with vehemence.

Q. Have you any knowledge of the opinion of the people of Chicago as to the reputation of Judge Morris for loyalty as a citizen?

A. My position, pursuits and labors have necessarily withdrawn me considerably from political society; still I think I know what his character is as a general thing. Defining loyalty and I think this is necessary, as different meanings are attached to the term by different men-to be fidelity to our form of government and to the Constitution, I think the reputation of Judge Morris, so far as I know it, to be that of a loyal man. He was a very strict advocate of what was called the Crittenden compromise, and desired, exceedingly, that the difficulties between the two sections of the country should be settled amicably. My impression from conversations I have had with Judge Morris is, that when the conflict commenced he was entirely opposed to the course of the south in taking up arms against the government, but during the progress of the contest he seemed to have been convinced that many of the measures and acts of the administration were illegal and unconstitutional, and, perhaps, that they were usurpations. I know he has spoken very strongly upon that subject, but I never heard anything from Judge Morris, and I have never heard from any man who was intimate with him, that would justify the conclusion that he was a disloyal man, or wanting in obedience to the Constitution and laws of the country. I do not know what developments this trial may have produced, not having followed the evidence, but up to the time of his arrest I certainly should as soon have distrusted my own loyalty as that of Judge Morris.

By Judge WILSON, counsel for Charles Walsh:

Q. At the time of raising regiments in Chicago, did you preside at several meetings for that purpose?

A. I cannot say that I presided at several meetings, the only object of which was the raising of troops; but I presided at a great many meetings that were called war meetings, the object of which was to unite the sentiment in our city and section of country in favor of a vigorous prosecution of the war. Q. Do you remember Mr. Walsh?

A. When Mr. Walsh's name was mentioned as one of those who had been arrested, I did not recollect him by the name, but since I have come in here, I think I have seen him, and have heard his name mentioned as a candidate for the office of sheriff.

something was read from a book. The reading
in ther?

the

side and a man there said I was too far north; I then went to the
they said I was getting too far south. After getting me on
or obligation seemed all right. The regular officer was not
boys there, and the balance of the ceremony was left
Something was said as a hailing word or sign of distress,
"Oak-own" or something of that kind; he said a person
holding the head back could make a very loud noise.
and as I paid very little attention to it, it soon escap
Q. Why did Mr. Storey scold you?

GEORGE ST. LEGER GRE

BERT HERVEY, Esq., counsel for Judge Morris:

State

your name, residence, and official position. Judge Morris, and if so, how long you have known him? prthern district of Illinois, which position I have occupied mond; residence, Chicago; I am judge of the United States torney, and as judge of a State court. are. I have known him as a citizen, an acquaintI believe, in the spring of 1835; I am certain I have

man of humane and kind disposition, if so, his character among his neighbors in the

ed kad bearsed man: a man early

A. For belonging to this society. One night found an invitation to walk into Mr. Storey's roc mised with this conspiracy." This was shor devil," said he, "did you go into this sort of th ligence." He had a note written on repor "I have a note from Colonel Sweet in rega ter leave; this is his advice, and this is m the running kind," and I said I would Mr. Storey is a very abrupt man, a ma onel Sweet and set the matter all rig By the court:

Q. Was there any threat or offe the secrets of the order of the Ill A. No, sir; he treated me ve ing of the kind.

Q. Had you any other cr been referred to ?

A. I have had, I think,
timony that is given here
Q. Did you go there
A. Never, sir.

Q. Never for any r A. Yes, sir; there Lodge; that was th any other purpose? asked him for a F.

By Ron

Q. When

ans.

4

nat have

sympathizing with the southern re

been a democrat?

was a whig before you were born. I never affiliated with the ty in the slightest.

have testifie ou vote for Mr. Lincoln ?

ing that th id, sir; in 1860 and 1864. I am a war man, from the beginning I A. Ye een opposed to all compromise, and have believed that this matter never Q. be settled except by force-by war.

which Did Judge Morris hold the same views?

No, sir, I do not think he did; I think Judge Morris has been a man of his opinion has been that the matter ought to be settled by peace, by Compromise, and I believe that a loyal man may be in favor of

Q. Peace at all hazards?

peace.

t A. I think that a man who is convinced in his own mind that this country can never be united by war, may be opposed to war, and still be a loyal man.

Q. That does not quite meet the question. I want to know if, with your es timate of loyalty, you would admit a man to be loyal who would consent to peace on the terms of separation from this government; would you class such a man as loyal or disloyal?

A. I understand loyalty to consist in obedience to the government and the