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Lieut. Oscar F. Cooper, branch hydrographic office, Savannah, Ga.
Lieut. Virgil Baker, branch hydrographic office, Baltimore, Md.

Paymaster George W. Reeves, ordered to navy yard, Mare Island, Cal.

Professor of Mathematics Henry M. Paul, temporary duty. Department of Justice.
Naval Constructor Frank B. Zahm, inspector of electrical material, General Electric
Co., Schenectady, N. Y.

Chief Carpenter Edward H. Hay, Fore River Shipbuilding Co., Quincy, Mass.
Chief Carpenter Alonzo Burke, custodian, New Orleans, La.

The CHAIRMAN. You can put them in the hearings. I wanted to get a statement of the relative cost of maintenance of prisoners aboard prison ships and in the naval prisons.

Admiral BLUE. Yes, sir. A recent estimate indicates that the average cost of maintenance of a prisoner on the Prison Ship Southery is $360.12 per annum; and at the naval prison, Portsmouth, N. H., $433.92. This is based on the amount actually spent on prisoners and their guards and does not include the upkeep of the prison or ship. The CHAIRMAN. And also I would like for you to state your observations as to efficiency and morale, the effect of the two services. I want to say that on my visit up to the prison at Portsmouth, that it occurred to me from my observation that there was an unnecessary rigidity and severity in the punishment of prisoners. Many of them are in there for military offenses.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the prison?

The CHAIRMAN. In the prison. I am not speaking of the ship; I am speaking of the prison. It seemed to me there was an unnecessary amount of severe punishment. There seemed to be more of the idea of punishment than there was of reformation, and that there should be in these prisons a more generous idea of bettering and improving the men who are put in there, especially as the result of military offenses and minor offenses that did not involve moral turpitude and depravity of character, so that the man would come out a better man instead of being subjected to so much rigidity and severity of punishment.

Admiral BLUE. That is what we try to do at the detention barracks. The CHAIRMAN. I know you are doing that there, and it occurred to me that the same idea could be, to some extent, introduced into into the naval prisons, and at least there should not be so much severity of punishment. That is the impression I got.

My approval, and I think that I voice the sentiment and feelings of the members of the committee-the approval of the idea being worked out in these detentionary camps that have been established at Port Royal, S. C., and at Puget Sound should be kept in view for the betterment of the men instead of the idea of simply punish

ment.

Admiral BLUE. That is the policy of the department now.

The CHAIRMAN. I know it is, and it is with reference to that I was calling attention, and at the same time expressing my opinion of the idea which the department is seeking to do along that line.

Mr. BROWNING. For instance, at Portsmouth there is a prison, and there is also the prison ships. Where do you draw the line of sending prisoners or the persons that shall be punished, either to prison or to the ships; is it certain offenses?

Admiral BLUE. A prison ship may be regarded in a manner as a receiving ship for prisoners, a place where they are held until they can be accommodated in the prison; the prison is kept full to its

capacity, and the prison ship takes care of the excess. Men guilty of offenses of a felonious nature are sent to State prisons. Only those guilty of military offenses are sent to the naval prisons and to prison ships. Many of the latter class whose youth and inexperience as well as previous records indicate that they may be reclaimed to the service are sent to disciplinary barracks. At present about three-fourths of all the prisoners are at disciplinary barracks. Many are transferred to disciplinary barracks from the prisons and prison ships on account of good conduct during a probationary period.

There is only a very small percentage of men in the Navy whose conduct involves prison sentences. These men soon become known on board ship. If they could be summarily discharged by the commanding officer, the service would be better off and the Government save a large amount in prison expenses. It is firmly believed that if one-fourth of the amount now spent on prisons was added to recruiting, the Navy could be well supplied with excellent men, permitting the discharge of the undesirable and dissatisfied. This would make desertion unnecessary as a means of leaving the service, permit the Navy to retain only the desirable men, and thereby maintain better discipline and efficiency, while at the same time reducing expenses by cutting down the enormous expense of prisons and prisoners. A recruit costs the Government $20 to enlist and $60 for an outfit, making $80 in all. The average cost of a prisoner is from $450 to $500. Besides, the service of a prisoner is a dead loss. The number of men enlisted is in proportion to the number of recruiting stations. I believe it would be good policy to increase recruiting stations at the expense of prisons.

Mr. BROWNING. The prison there was not full by any means.

Admiral BLUE. In the cases of many who are sentenced by courtmartial to a regular prison, the Secretary mitigates the sentence by sending them to a detention camp, especially if they are young men, and the offense is nothing more than a military one.

Mr. ROBERTS. There is just one thing that I wanted to get from the admiral before he goes from punishments. It always seemed to me, since I have been on the committee, that the sentences for naval offenses are, for the most part, too severe for the nature of the offense committed. I wanted to ask the admiral if he has ever given that matter any thought, and whether by regulation or by law in some way we could come down more approximating the ordinary court sentence for a similar offense. As you know, Admiral, there is one feature of the naval sentence that works unusually hard on a man coming in that he not only gets an imprisonment, but he gets a very heavy forfeiture, which amounts to a very heavy fine, and in many instances a landsman would think for a comparatively small offense, so that the punishment was not complete, after he served six months in prison, but goes on for a long time through this taking of his pay. Admiral BLUE. That is the worst part of it.

Mr. ROBERTS. I have every reason to believe that to a considerable extent desertions are fostered and created by the feelings of the men after they have paid the penalty, so to speak, and served the punishment, of their still being pursued and punished while they should be earning pay, going ahead, and their pay being taken away as part of the penalty of their old offense, which, according to their way of thinking in civil life, would all be wiped out.

Mr. ESTOPINAL. That is the thing they are complaining most about. Mr. ROBERTS. They reason and think that they are unjustly treated.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. That is not as bad as kicking the men out of the Navy because they get married or get lost in the mountains, or something of that kind.

Mr. ESTOPINAL. That is to punish a man corporally; that is to put him in jail and punish him by jail sentence, and then take his pay besides. I have had several complaints of that kind to come

to me.

Mr. ROBERTS. It seems to me too much punishment for the offenses in the cases that have been brought to my attention.

Admiral BLUE. I think the punishments are very severe-too severe, in a great many cases; and I have no doubt that in the very near future this subject will receive the serious consideration of the department, and that something will be done to better conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that can be done, if the officers of the Navy, who are called upon necessarily to constitute courts martial, ascertain that.

Mr. ROBERTS. If revised in the regulations as to the sentence for conviction of a certain offense.

The CHAIRMAN. They always have a maximum and a minimum

sentence.

Mr. ROBERTS. Courts-martial have no control over that. We must admit that this idea of stiff punishment in the Army and Navy come down from the olds, when punishments were much more severe than now, and it was thought we should have the harsher kinds of punishment eliminated.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. In regard to these prisons, you say some of them showed too much leniency, so much that the men would rather be there than in the service, and in others too severe punishment was inflicted, according to the temperament of the man in charge of it. Is not the way to correct that for the superior officer, the man in charge of all these prisons, to look after that and make a change in them?

Admiral BLUE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEE. Admiral, just one question. I would like to return to the Hydrographer's Office and ask you to put in your hearings just how much of that $90,000 is expended in buying charts outside, and whether you think it would not be better to make the charts right in the office?

Mr. ROBERTS. We provided for that a year or two ago.

The CHAIRMAN. We increased the appropriation, but are we prepared to make all the charts?

It

Admiral BLUE. Not all of them, no, sir; we have to buy some. would be undoubtedly better all around if the Hydrographic Office should be able to make all of our charts. Last year $10,800 was spent for charts made outside.

The CHAIRMAN. We provided an increase for that a couple of years

ago.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. Will Admiral Blue be with us to-morrow?
The CHAIRMAN. No, sir.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. What bureau has charge of the experiments that were made about that Alaska coal? You remember we made appropriations to cover that.

The CHAIRMAN. The Bureau of Steam Engineering and the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. This bureau has nothing to do with that?
The CHAIRMAN. No, sir.

Turn now to page 45, and there are three items there I wanted to ask you about, in the distribution of the appropriations carried in the bill for the Bureau of Equipment. I notice that under supplies for seamen's quarters, etc., there is $230,000 that was allotted to your bureau. That is $230,000 of the estimates for the coming year? Admiral BLUE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did you expend last year under that item, and how much was unexpended?

Admiral BLUE. There is a balance of a little over $58,000 from that item.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, will you need all of the $235,000 this year; and if so, tell us why?

Admiral BLUE. I think we will, because I cut out of the estimate $120,000 for battle compasses. We have an appropriation during the current year of $120,000 for battle compasses; we had one last year for the same amount. That money is applied to putting battle compasses on all the old ships that had been built before gyroscopic compasses were invented. The general appropriation for new con struction goes toward putting the battle compasses on the new ones I concluded that the $120,000 we have this year will be sufficient to equip all the older ships that will be fit for the battle line two years hence.

The CHAIRMAN. You are going to suspend, then, on the item of battle compasses?

Mr. ROBERTS. It is going to be an indefinite suspension, then, of that item?

Admiral BLUE. That will probably be all we will spend on the old ships. Ships like the Oregon, Massachusetts, Indiana, and Iowa are growing obsolete and will probably not be used in the first line; so it appears useless to equip them with battle compasses at a cost of $10,000 each.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice under that last item are aviation outfits. We were discussing aviation the other day. Do you expect to have need for an increase of aviation outfits?

Admiral BLUE. No, sir. This is a very small item. What we spend on aviation outfits under this appropriation is a very small

amount.

Mr. ROBERTS. What does it consist of, Admiral?

Admiral BLUE. It consists of suits and headgear for the flyers, boots worn by the men in launching and hauling out the hydroplanes and flying boats, and instruments for measuring and recording speed and altitude. The item is not very considerable in amount.

The CHAIRMAN. Then I see you have another item under that of $100,000, page 46, for the purchase of all other articles of equipage at home and abroad and for the payment of labor in equipping vessels therewith, and manufacture of such articles in the several

navy yards. What, if any, unexpended balance did you have in that?

Admiral BLUE. The unexpended balance for the whole appropriation was a little over $58,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Your $58,000 was the unexpended balance of the total, $423,000, that you have cut out of the whole appropriation allotted last year?

Admiral BLUE. The whole appropriation.

The CHAIRMAN. And it did not relate solely to that item?

Admiral BLUE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And out of the appropriation you have cut out $120,000?

Admiral BLUE. $120,000.

Mr. ROBERTS. Just one question there, Admiral. I notice contingent bureau equipment, $3,200. Was that for entire equipment? Admiral BLUE. Just the portion allotted to the Bureau of Navigation.

Mr. STEPHENS. I notice Supplies and Accounts, $260,000?

The CHAIRMAN. On page 46 you will notice in the distribution, at the top of the page, it is distributed among the different bureaus, and the item you refer to belongs to another bureau.

Mr. STEPHENS. It is page 46.

The CHAIRMAN. On that page you will notice in the distribution, at the head of the columns, out of Equipment appropriation, Navigation so much, Construction and Repair, Steam Engineering, and so much for Supplies and Accounts.

What

Mr. STEPHENS. That does not answer my question. It refers to the removal and transportation of ashes from ships of war. does that mean?

Admiral BLUE. In most harbors ships are not permitted to dump their ashes. Every day a lighter must be provided to go alongside, receive the ashes, and take them to sea or to some place ashore and dump them.

Mr. STEPHENS. There are very few harbors in which you can dump them?

Admiral BLUE. Very few.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will now adjourn to meet to-morrow morning at 10.30, when we will consider the appropriation for "Supplies and Accounts."

(Whereupon at 12.45 o'clock p. m. the committee stood adjourned to meet to-morrow (Friday), December 12, 1913, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.)

APPENDIX A.

MEMORANDUM SHOWING METHOD OF FIXING NUMBER OF OFFICERS OF THE VARIOUS GRADES AND RANKS OF THE NAVY IN THE ESTIMATES FOR "PAY OF THE NAVY FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 1915."

The Navy list, date of January 1, 1913, is used as a basis. From it are taken out: (a) The actual retirements, deaths, resignations, and dismissals for the fiscal year 1913.

(b) The actual (age) retirements and probable retirements (40 above the grade of lieutenant, junior grade) for the fiscal year 1914.

(c) The actual (age) retirements for the fiscal year 1915.

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