through the House at a very late hour, upon the sudden, and without notice, three propositions of an extensive and most serious nature, and such as at the time were likely to have thrown the country into confusion. in reprobation of what he termed the insulting tones and manner of the hon. gentleman, which he neither merited, nor was he disposed tamely to submit to. Mr. Pitt declared his intention was to take the sense of the committee upon one question only, and that intention he trusted the committee would have the goodness to enable him to fulfil. Mr. Powys declared, he did not mean to encroach on what he presumed the right hon. gentleman considered as his special prerogative, the right of using insulting language to the members of that House; neither did he wish to break in upon what the right hon. gentleman might possibly esteem his peculiar privilege, the custom of throwing sarcasm on every hon. gentleman who ventured to differ in opinion from the right hon. gentleman, with every other personal affront that could suggest itself to a mind prone to irritation, and easily inflamed. When he rose before, he had no idea of saying any thing that could give the smallest of fence, much less that could provoke so unseemly a reply from the minister. He repeated that, in his opinion, those gentlemen who did not understand the resolutions any more than he did, and yet were ready to vote for the question, could not answer it to their consciences. Mr. Eden said, that his learned friend pursued a strange line of argument in defending the violence of the present measure, by stating, that on some former occasion others had adopted a conduct equally reprehensible. In answer to that, he would only remark, that he never yet had seen in parliament any instance of such precipitancy, which did not ultimately recoil on those who were concerned in it. He would remind the learned gentleman of a case in point :-A majority of the House, which probably did not vary much in any respect from the expected majority in the present debate, had thought proper, in the triumph of party, and in the delirium of political zeal, to force a vote respecting the Westminster scrutiny, at the same ill-fated hour of six in the morning; which vote was considered at the time as a glorious victory; but which now, in the opinion even of those who were concerned in it, and certainly in the sentiments of the public, was treated as a measure never to be mentioned but in terms of shame or of indignation. As to the struggle of the present debate, in which such intemperate efforts were making to force the House blindfold into the adoption of an unknown and most complicated measure, professedly involving the nearest and dearest interests of two kingdoms, he was sorry to say that it was an unworthy attempt. It might serve, indeed, to shew a numerous host of friends ready to resist the reasonable proposition of adjournment: but the questions were infinitely of too much magnitude to be rested on the strength of numbers; and the menace of persevering at all events to go through the propositions, or in other words, to make it a contest of bodily strength and constitutions, rather than fair argument and manly discussion, ought not to make any impression. For The Attorney General expressed his his own part, he had much to say on the surprise at the noble lord and his friends altered propositions, so far as he was able complaining so vehemently of the preci- to comprehend the alterations. From the pitancy in pushing the measure to a deci- cursory statement of those alterations, sion, which had been three months before they were very comprehensive and imthe House, and many weeks under deli-portant, and went pointedly to remove beration; when it must be in the recollection of the noble lord, that above 15 months ago he and his friends had pushed Mr. Fox supported Mr. Powys, and condemned the Chancellor of the Exchequer, declaring such language as he had held very improper for a minister to hold to any gentleman who thought proper to differ with him in opinion. Mr. Wilberforce read to the House the letter which he had received from his constituents at York, relative to the petition that had been alluded to by lord Surrey. He said, that he and his colleague had only received it on their coming down to the House. The Earl of Surrey said, he had read the letter over since he was upon his legs before, and thought it due to the hon. gentleman to state, that he found he had been mistaken in a part of his former assertion. some principal objections which had been stated by himself and others originally. But the alterations were so various and so connected and interwoven with the whole of this new system of national commerce, that it would be presumptuous to pretend on the sudden to form any competent judgment respecting them. Mr. Sheridan charged the Chancellor of the Exchequer with extreme obstinacy, and indecent pertinaciousness. The question of adjournment was now put, and the House divided: Ayes, 155; Noes, 281. After the division against the adjournment, Mr. Pelham first proposed to divide the general resolution into two, which was consented to. Mr. Pelham then moved to amend the second, by inserting after the words "commercial advantages," "As far as may be consistent with the essential interest of the manufacturers, revenue, commerce, and navigation of Great Britain.” This amendment was seconded by lord Surrey, and was on a division rejected: Ayes 125, Noes 249. After Mr. Pelham's amendment was negatived, Mr. Sheridan rose to propose one, which, he said, he should not trouble the committee to divide upon, as he meant to renew it upon the report; nor would he violate the system of the day, by endeavouring to make the House understand the purport of his opposition before the question was put upon it. He accordingly moved to leave out part of the paragraph from the words "whenever a provision," &c. to insert "Great Britain, confiding in the experienced good faith, generosity and honour of Ireland, that in proportion to her growing generosity, she will contribute to the necessary expenses of protecting the general interests of the empire." This amendment, which was grounded on some words of the Address moved in 1782 by Mr. Grattan, in Ireland, was negatived without a division. The Resolution was then agreed to. At six o'clock in the morning the House adjourned. May 19. The order of the day, for going again into a committee on the Irish Propositions being read, the Speaker left the chair of the House, and Mr. M. A. Taylor took the chair of the committee. Mr. Chancellor Pitt then rose, and without making any preparatory speech, moved the following resolution, being the third of the propositions which he had opened to the committee on the former day: viz. "That towards carrying into full effect so desirable a settlement, it is fit and pro per that all articles not the growth or manufacture of Great Britain or Ireland, should be imported into each kingdom from the other reciprocally, under the same regulations, and at the same duties (if subject to duties), to which they are liable when imported directly from the place of their growth, product, or manufacture; and that all duties originally paid on importation into either country respectively, except on arrack and foreign brandy, and on rum, and all sorts of strong waters, not imported from the British colonies in the West Indies or America, should be fully drawn back on exportation to the other." As soon as the chairman had read the resolution, Lord North rose. He observed, that though he had taken the liberty on Thursday last, or rather on Friday morning, to address the committee on the subject of the Irish propositions, yet his arguments went rather to prove the propriety of delay, than the impolicy of the system : the alterations that had been introduced on that day had so completely changed the nature of the original propositions, that he thought time ought to have been allowed to parliament and to the nation, to consider them very maturely, before the right hon. gentleman should press for a final decision upon them; however, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer was determined not to wait till the country could be apprized of the alterations, he conceived it to be his duty to state to the committee the objections that struck him on this very important business. His right hon. friend (Mr. Fox) had entered so largely into it on Thursday, and handled it with so much ability, that he should not on this day be under the necessity of taking up much of the time of the committee in making the remarks that occurred to him on this occasion: he knew it was not regular for a member to speak to any resolution that was not immediately before the House; but as he wished not to trouble the committee more than once this day, he hoped he should be permitted to speak against the different parts of the system, though a particular part only was at that moment under consideration. The propositions which formed the basis of the system, that was finally to adjust the intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland, were generally, but erroneously, called the Irish Propositions; every man acquainted with the history of the business, knew that they did not originate with Ireland; that Ireland never called for them; but that they were offered to that country by a gentleman (Mr. Orde) who, though he was at that time a member of the Irish parliament, moved the resolutions under the weight and authority of the English ministry. This new system of intercourse was, therefore, the free-will offering of England rather than the demand of Ireland, and consequently it could not be said, that in opening to the Irish the British market, the minister could with any decency urge the plea of necessity; for he was giving what had never been asked, what had never been thought of but by himself. Indeed, no man could suppose that Ireland would ask for it; she could not ask for it ex debito justitiæ; if she could, he would readily admit the claim; he would do her justice, let the consequence be what it might-fiat justitia, ruat cælum. But justice was out of the question: this country had done many things liberally and generously towards Ireland; she had admitted her to trade to the British colonies; and what was an act of generosity in the parliament of England, ought not to be made the ground of a claim of right on the part of Ireland to a share in the British markets, which ought to belong exclusively to the British manufacturer. No man could be farther than he was from wishing to deprive Ireland of any commercial advantage; on the contrary, he would most gladly admit her to a participation of every advantage in trade, provided she was so connected with us as to form one people with us under one government, one legislature. Were the two countries perfectly united under one parliament, he should, as in duty bound, consider their interests as one and the same, undivided and inseparable; but until the happy day should come, that should make the two kingdoms one, he did not conceive it to be either just or equitable that the one should be enriched at the expense of the other: and yet this must necessarily be the case, if the British market was ever thrown open to the Irish; for then Ireland would impoverish the English manufacturers, by whom the immense taxes of this country were paid, whilst she would not contribute from her wealth to the public burthen. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Pitt) who never missed an opportunity of attacking him, had vindicated his conduct by saying, that the noble lord in the blue ribbon had already given away so much to the Irish, that very little remained to be given to them. It was remarkable that he thus wished to exaggerate what had been done in 1780, when the free trade was given: but the right hon. gentleman, soon forgetting this, had asserted on a former occasion, and this he would have understood as the ground of his justification, that the noble lord in the blue ribbon had done so little for Ireland, that without what was proposed now in her favour, she would reap no advantage from the pretended free trade that had been voted to her. Here were two very strong contradictions; for the concessions of 1780 were, as occasion required, represented as giving every thing and nothing: truth, perhaps, was not to be found in either of these propositions; it probably lay between both. Much was given in 1780, and much was proposed to be given in 1785. To prove the former, he had only to point out to the committee the state of the importation of sugars into Ireland, by a direct trade from the West Indies, for the four last years; in 1781, the year after the trade was opened, the importation of sugars was no more than 7,000 hundred weight; in 1782, eighteen thousand; in 1783, thirtythree thousand; and in 1784, it fell to 27,000. Every man must surely admit, that this direct trade, which had not been enjoyed before, must have produced very considerable advantage to Ireland; and therefore it was not true, that so little had been granted in 1780, that without what was now called for, it could be of no service. He had very strong objections to any extension of the colony trade beyond what was marked out in 1780, and for very substantial reasons. He was of opinion, that it was on the most politic and rational grounds that the monopoly of the British market had been secured to the British West India planters; they contributed in a very great degree to the revenue of this country, and in a great measure enabled it to bear the heavy burthens with which it was loaded: it was politic, therefore, it was just, that they should have no competitors in this market. He knew very well, that there were persons who were hostile to this monopoly, who were hostile, indeed, to every monopoly ; and who thought that rivalship and competition ought to be encouraged in every state for the benefit of the people. Among the enemies to monopoly in general, he would class a very respectable man, and a very able writer, who had long laboured for the public good; he meant the dean of Gloucester: but still, notwithstanding this great authority, he would not consent that the monopoly of our market, enjoyed by the West India planters, should be destroyed; and so strongly had he always been attached to this monopoly, that he would not suffer prize sugar, taken during the war, to be brought into the market: and consequently he could not be a friend to the measure now under consideration; for though many modifications, suggested by the commissioners of the customs, had been adopted by the right hon. gentleman, who had so far rendered his propositions less objectionable, still he had reason to apprehend that Ireland, by being permitted to supply the British market, by circuitous trade, with sugar, might send into this country great quantities of foreign sugars; and his apprehensions were far from being without foundation; for, in the first place, the Irish, should they be inclined to carry on an illicit trade with the French colonies, (and merchants generally pursued their own interests in preference to those of the state,) might supply themselves with French sugars at 16s. a cwt., when the same quantity would cost 25s. in the British islands. Here, then, was a great temptation to the Irish to trade with the former rather than the latter, though contrary to law. The right hon. gentleman had, indeed, guarded against this, as far as he was able, by providing checks that should prevent the importation of French sugars into England or Ireland; but the security that was to be derived from these checks to the British planters, would be delusive and imaginary. It was proposed, that every ship touching at Ireland on her way from the West Indies should be provided with a certificate from the officers of the customs in the island, that the cargo was the product of British colonies; that each ship, on her arrival in England from Ireland, should produce this certificate; and that if she did not bring all the cargo at once, she should be at liberty to bring it at some other time, on being furnished with sufficient documents to prove that the second cargo was part of the first stated in the original certificate; so that, for instance, if having on board 20,000 cwt. of sugar upon leaving Jamaica, she should land 1,500 in Ireland, and carry the remainder to England, she would then get credit for the 1,500 so left in Ireland, which she would be permitted to bring over at any other period; and under pretence of importing British, she might import French sugar to that amount: for after having been refined, it would be absolutely impossible for the English custom-house officers to ascertain whether it had been, when in its moist state, brought from a British or French island; and therefore, to open this market to Irish ships with sugars on board, after having touched at Ireland, would be opening a door for the admission and sale of French produce, to the great prejudice of the English planters, who deserved so well of this country, and were well entitled to every indulgence and privilege that could be bestowed upon them. In a matter of so much moment, he would not trust to the diligence of Irish officers: if he could place the same reliance on all officers of revenue in Ire land, that he did in the gentleman who was at the head of the revenue in that country, than whom there was not a more honourable man in any kingdom; or that he could in the board of commissioners, who were men of ability and integrity, perhaps he would feel the objection on this head greatly diminished: but it was well known that it was only in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, and a few other great towns, that the revenue laws were strictly enforced. It appeared from the report of the Irish commissioners of revenue, then on the table, that in other parts of the kingdom the laws were ill obeyed; nay, that it was almost impossible to enforce them. Where, then, could be the security, that the checks provided in the propositions, to guard against the importation of French sugars, would be strictly observed in those parts of Ireland, where the commissioners confessed that their own revenue laws were disobeyed? He was aware the right hon. gentleman might reply, that formerly this country trusted to the Irish custom-house officers the execution of the revenue laws; for when a ship from the West Indies, touching at Ireland, landed goods there, and was then permitted to invoice her sugars to Great Britain, the officers might be corrupted, and enable the owners to evade the law. But this reply could not be deemed satisfactory; for when this could have happened, Ireland was under the control of this country; and had any abuse of that nature been discovered, the Irish commissioners, and all those who acted under them, might have been punished, as they were all amenable to the superintending jurisdiction of the British parliament. But this was not the case at present; Ireland was now an independent country; she had a supreme and sovereign legislature of her own, to which, and to no other, were all the different boards and departments of Irish revenue subject and responsible: therefore, the grounds on which the British parliament had trusted to Irish officers for the execution of the laws for years back, having been destroyed by the recognition of the independence of the Irish parliament, no argument could be drawn from the former trust for a continuation of it under circumstances totally different. Whilst the control of this country over Ireland existed, abuse might have been corrected; and if no other remedy could have been discovered, England could have enacted, that no Irish ships bringing sugars to this country from the West Indies should touch at Ireland, or break bulk there, and thus the grievance would have been easily remedied; for it was not in consequence of any compact that the trade from the colonies to England, by a direct navigation, was open to Irish ships, but because from the first enacting of the navigation laws they had been considered as British; and he hoped he should never see the day when they would cease to be considered as such. It was not in consequence of any compact that Irish ships Jaden with rum and sugars were permitted to land the former in Ireland, and then proceed with the latter to England; and therefore this country might, without the violation of any agreement, resume what had been given only through indulgence, and forbid these ships from stopping in Ireland. This, therefore, was a check at that time against abuses; but it would be lost for ever, should the present plan be adopted by parliament: for as it was to be final, so it would tie the hands of this country, and take from her the power of making any alterations in future, however ⚫ necessary they might be, without the concurrence of the Irish parliament. It was, therefore, the more incumbent on the committee to pause a while, lest they should commit an error, for which they could not of themselves apply a remedy: they had had a lucky escape already; for had the propositions passed soon after they were at first proposed, England could not have renewed the East-India Company's charter for an exclusive trade to the East, without the concurrence of Ireland. The right hon. gentleman had said on a former day, that though it should be put in the power of Ireland to supply the British market with West India commodities, still it was very improbable that she would ever do so; for though she had a free trade to the islands since 1780, she had not imported a sufficient quantity of sugar for her own consumption, much less for exportation; and she had drawn a very considerable share of it for her own use from England. But he was not to be deceived by this specious mode of reasoning. He admitted that Ireland had been supplied since 1780 with great quantities of sugar from this country; but he contended, that there was good ground for thinking that this would not have happened had Ireland been' at liberty to supply Great Britain: for it had been acknowledged by the right hon. gentleman, that Ireland having once had the British market open to her, might indulge in speculations, and consequently import from the West Indies sugar enough not only for her own consumption, but also to send to England, whenever there should be a scarcity of that commodity in the latter. But to do away the force of this observation, the right hon. gentleman had also observed, that there was one thing that would operate strongly against Ireland in such a speculation, and that was the double freight: for the price of freight and insurance from the West Indies was the same to Ireland as to England; the Irish merchant, therefore, would be subjected to the expense of landing, re-shipping, and another freight and insurance to England, together with double port duties; and thence the right hon. gentleman would infer, that the Irish merchant could not, with advantage to himself, supply the British market. But surely he must have forgotten, that even at this moment Ireland drew a great part of her sugar from England; and if his principle was true, the latter could not supply her to her own advantage, for she could do it only by double freights and double insurances : therefore, the very circumstance of Ireland being supplied from England with sugar, demonstrated, that even under double freights and insurances a profitable trade could be carried on. But he would go a step farther, and ask, who would undertake to say that the price of freight and insurance would always remain as high from the islands to Ireland, as from them to England? the probability was, that it |