was not thought romantic or impracticable. | Let us then no longer run the hazard of so fatal a blow, nor be obliged to cramp the use of the navy, whenever an enemy chooses to keep up appearances, to create alarms for our safety at home, while they are making easy conquests in distant parts of the empire. He then observed, that the construction of the forts, the posts they are to occupy, and the number of troops necessary to defend them, had rested on the judgment of the master-general; who had taken great pains, and being confirmed in his opinions, by finding that his idea coincided with that of many of our ablest generals, and the most distinguished engineers in the service, the House might either be satisfied upon the ground of confidence in the noble duke, or adopt some fair and wise mode of farther investigation. He only hoped they would not condemn from prejudice. He then observed, on the article of expense, that great pains had been taken by the engineers to make estimates which could not be greatly exceeded; though it is impossible for any calculation to be perfectly accurate. He also stated many new regulations of the board, which effectually guard the public money from being la vished away by the persons intrusted to carry the plans into execution. He hoped never to see the navy again employed merely for the object of a defensive war. Offensive war he considered as best suited to the genius of this nation, and the only description of war that could terminate with advantage, honour, and glory to Great Britain. Every measure that led to this object he thought worthy the attention of parliament. Release the navy from unnecessary incumbrances; employ it as an active force: and, by a wise application of it, and the vigour and exertions of our officers and seamen, the British flag may again keep our enemies in awe, and give security to the most distant parts of the empire. He therefore hoped and trusted, parliament would not, from ill-grounded prejudices, or a superficial view of the subject, refuse to allow the application of the money granted for the proposed fortifications at Portsmouth and Plymouth. Captain M'Bride said, that though the present was a subject which was rather out of his element, yet as it was connected with it, he felt himself called on to deliver his sentiments, which he would do very briefly. He was of opinion, that no landing could be effected at Whitsand Bay; and he would venture to say farther, that there was only one place to the westward of Plymouth were any considerable armament could be landed. Had the noble duke at the head of the ordnance deigned to consult the experience of many naval officers on the subject, they would have told him, that that place was within eight miles of his lines. He did not, he said, think it right publicly to mention where we were most vulnerable; but he was confident, that the east side of Plymouth, was the weakest, and to that no attention had been paid. He thought it strange, that in a business of such consequence to this country the advice of professional men had not been taken. The plan ought to have been made upon the spot, and after that plan had been determined on, it ought not to be under the control of any mastergeneral of the ordnance. He was for guarding against enterprize as much as any man; but when he saw the absurdity of the plans proposed for our defence, he should be wanting in solicitude for the good of his country, if he did not strenu ously oppose the lavishing of the public treasure upon objects which were by no means calculated to answer their intention. Mr. Courtenay said, he felt himself called on to declare, that what he had said in a former debate, and what he should now take the liberty to say on the subject, did not proceed from any pique or personal resentment he entertained against the noble duke now at the head of the ordnance. He had received personal civilities from that noble person, and, when in office, had more than once been honoured with his approbation. The privilege, however, of a free discussion of those matters which the noble duke had submitted to the consideration of the House, he certainly would take; and though he had not implicit confidence in the present board, he was free to declare he entertained no prejudice against those persons who composed it. The conduct of the late board, he said, had been mentioned with some triumph, as not being more deserving of praise than the present. Without entering into the merits of this argument, if any merits it had, he said, it was strange that the present enlightened board should perceive the errors of the former, and yet follow its example at an infinitely greater expense to the nation. The present master-general, he could not deny, had some abilities, and he | rough, from which almost every vessel had persevering industry. It was rather in the ordnance service is taken up, unfortunate for this country, that his merely to maintain an influence in that grace's passion for engineering had broke borough.' On the last master-general's forth at so late a period of his life. When (lord Townshend) coming in, the proper an old man fell in love, there was nothing, officer was ordered to report, and give in however ridiculous, that he would not pro- an account of the expense of employing pose, and nothing so preposterous that he these Queenborough vessels; an order would not agree to, to accomplish the was actually made to discharge such as gratification of his passion. The noble were unnecessary. However, this econoduke, he believed, meant well, but a little mical plan (for very proper reasons no learning was a dangerous thing:' and in doubt) was not adopted by the noble nothing was it more dangerous than in the duke; and these vessels were actually all rescience of engineering: in most other tained and unnecessarily employed at that sciences, it only exposed the individual to moment. The saving that would have a little contempt and ridicule, which was arisen from this, Mr. Courtenay could not of no great consequence. The only mode exactly ascertain, but he believed it might of defence left for the noble duke's friends, amount to as much as all the noble duke's was to say, (which, perhaps, they might savings in 1785. Much pains, however, with some truth,) that he had not even a he said, had been taken by the noble duke little learning, and therefore did not come to accomplish his favourite pursuits, with under this predicament. Half concep- a due regard to frugality;-the important tions, rude notions, exclusive of their being savings of three farthings on a wheelexpensive, in engineering, were to the barrow, or a sand-bag, had been submitlast degree dangerous and destructive. ted to the approbation of the House, In the ordnance report, Mr. Courtenay with all the ostentatious pageantry of observed, that the noble duke had com- ordnance economy. The noble duke had plied with the amendment which had been likewise found, that the Sussex wood negatived, as he had seen the force and made excellent gun-carriages; and that propriety of it; and shewed how little Mr. Andrews, at Chichester, could furnish regard he had for a majority, who even it cheaper than any body else. He had voted in his favour, when he disapproved heard the noble duke declare, that the inof the principle on which they voted. The fluence of the master-general of the ordsecretary at war had, with that intuitive nance was great and extensive, and he sagacity which always arises from office, had, no doubt, found it so. With regard suggested the danger of giving such in- to what he had said on a former occasion, formation as the amendment pointed out, and which he had been challenged to viz. because it would expose the intended prove, that the plans projected by the situation of our military works, &c. This present board would cost the nation a admirable reason had such an effect million and a half, or two millions of on the House, that the amendment money, before they could be carried into was instantly negatived; yet the noble execution; he was still of that opinion; duke had, in defence of the right hon. and in this he had the concurrence of segentleman's ideas, explicitly complied veral officers of experience and estimation with it, and by doing so, neither treated in the service. The noble duke had now him nor his majority with great respect. said, that he had reduced his plans to a In every point, he was always ready to smaller scale; it was, however, an expendo the noble duke ample justice. It had sive reduction, for it was, in fact, pulling been invidiously said, that he was a rigid down works, on which large sums had and austere reformer; that he was severe already been expended, to erect others in and unaccommodating, and would never their stead. This was reducing with a deviate the least from a rigid, and some- witness. However, this inquiry, he said, times oppressive economy. This report, would not have been useless; one benefit Mr. Courtenay asserted, was injurious and which it had already produced was, that ill-founded; for he could assert, that the it had contracted the original plan, and of noble duke had (about two years ago, in a course diminished the expense; for the debate in the House of Lords) made use noble duke certainly meant to have exeof these very words: Great and exten- cuted a much more extensive plan, to sive is the influence of the board of ord- which, Mr. Courtenay said, he had alluded nance; there is one borough, Queenbo- on a former day; for instance, a work near a the road, which crossed the Morass, little below Grange fort; another inserted in the plan, between those prepared for Frater Lake, and the ground near Rowner Church; the large work near on Brewer Down, and some others extending towards Titchfield Haven; another on the Maker Line (Plymouth) on the point of land on which stands the King's Brew-house; as the enemy, in spite of the works on Pier Point and Mount Edgecumbe, may bombard both the harbour and dock-yard. But the noble duke's report confirmed the former extensiveness of his plan in the strongest manner: "The eastward side of Plymouth would require at least five considerable forts to keep an enemy out of reach of bombardment, by means of fortification." This expression Mr. Courtenay pointedly ridiculed, insisting it meant that the fortifications protected the enemy from being bombarded; and this, he beJieved, would be the only use of such constructed fortifications. In constructing works of this nature, and considering their importance, if properly carried into execution, he was surprised that the noble duke had not called to his aid every professional assistance. The advice, not only of the engineers, but also the opinion of naval officers of experience, ought to have been consulted on every step that was taken. With regard to the extent of the lines, some general officer of acknowledged abilities should have suggested his ideas on the subject. All this, however, had been neglected. He would beg leave to ask the noble duke, if lord Hood, lord Howe, earl Cornwallis, sir William Draper, or any other officer of experience, had been consulted? If they should tell them they had examined those works, and that they would answer all the purposes pretended; and engineers on a correct and accurate calculation should say, they could be executed for the sum proposed, that would make some alteration. But it was still asserted, that those impregnable fortifications must depend for their resistance, upon the zeal, activity and efforts of the inhabitants; in which no man had a greater confidence than he had. But of all the inhabitants of the island, in which he had the greatest confidence, were those who conducted the navy of the country; it was to those strenuous and undaunted efforts we owed, and always should owe, the prosperity, the greatness, and the protection of our country. In our reliance on the navy, we $ relied upon men of tried and known abilities, and upon men of all parties. He knew a noble lord in his eye, (lord Mulgrave) of whose courage and conduct he had such an admiration, that he professed a most sincere wish he was always employed in his profession, and he seldom heard him speak without sincerely wishing him at sea. Mr. Courtenay added, that his situation and property were not sufficient to expose him to any very heavy increase, from the great additional burthen of a million, which was to be voted that night. The noble duke had submitted a memoir to the House in the account which had been given of the expenditure, and it was worded in such a particular manner, that it appeared to him to be something like the protests of the other House. The bugbear of invasion, and burning our dock-yards, he said, had been always held out to us as a pretence for the necessity of the extent of the present plan, and in order to induce the House to part with their money easily; but if the prodigious expense of those extensive lines of fortification was considered, it would be much better to run the risk of a bombardment every year than submit to it. There were many ways in which a bombardment might be prevented from being ruinous to a dock-yard. The timber might be floated in the reservoir, and the pitch and tar might be sunk without injury. The hemp, indeed, was the only combustible to which that remedy could not be applied. It, however, might be easily secured, by being placed in a bomb-proof situation, which in a dock-yard was easily formed by logs of wood and pitch. What would be thought, he said, of the intellects of a merchant, who, instead of warehousing his goods, storing them securely in his cellar, and locking the door, should hire 4 or 500 men to protect them on the wharf? He must say, that the conduct of the present master-general was something similar. To protect the dock-yards, he would plunge the nation into an expense altogether enormous, for the purpose of doing that which would be more effectually done by a third part of that expense. Every body knew that military works cost much more than the estimate. plans to be carried into execution, the expense did not cease then: we must provide for perpetual repairs, so that this, with the interest of the money expended, would cost the nation at least 80,000l. annually, which was a sum not contemptible even to Were the present form a sinking fund for the payment of the national debt. He was glad to see the independent country gentlemen in terest themselves on this occasion. He hoped they would all join in reprobating a measure so pregnant with mischief as this was to their country. When they came forward, what administration would dare to oppose them? the subject was one of the most serious and important that had ever been agitated within those walls. It required, therefore, great consideration. In order to lead the House to a due prospect of it, he said he would state from memory, for he had now, God knew, no other assistance, what had been the sums voted for the ordnance at different periods of our history. He cited the year after the treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle; the year 1763, after the treaty of Paris; and the years 1783 and 1784; com Mr. Courtenay then called on the minister to act up to his repeated declarations and professions; adding, that it was not that inferior, subordinate species of eco-paring the amounts of the grants for the nomy, which might furnish materials for a speech, that would be of essential benefit. We were not in a situation to take words for things. The credit, the honour, the reputation of the minister, depended upon that night's decision. Did the master-general mean to terrify them into voting a million of money through the chimerical dread of a ridiculous bombardment, or the destruction of their dock-yards? He acted like a fortune-teller, who foretold a calamity, and then thought he had a right to our money for his prediction. And indeed, he must say, the board of ordnance concluded their report by a most irreconcilable piece of burlesque, making an apology for giving so much information; for as they depended on the ministers getting the estimate voted, they thought it would be more difficult to prevail on the House to do so, after giving such information, than without it; and therefore very handsomely made an apology for their imprudence. For his part, he was of opinion, and he did by no means rely on his own judgment, that if the old works pro jected by general Conway were put in repair, they would answer every essential purpose for the protection of the dockyard. Besides, were the extensive lines of fortification that were now projected by the noble duke to be finished, he would pledge himself to the House to prove their inefficacy, and that they were by no means calculated for the purposes they were intended for. He thought the House, before they granted such large sums, ought to be satisfied of the propriety of their application. He concluded with giving his hearty assent to the motion of re-commitment. ordnance estimates at each period. He shewed, that it had arisen from 70,000l. to 110,000l. and 115,000l. and that during the late war, the House in one year voted 1,600,000l. for that service. In 1784, 600,000l. was the sum granted, and this year parliament was called upon for so much more. He reprobated the doctrine that Mr. Luttrell had held, that we could not, in case of a new war, send more than 100 sail to sea. He stated the numbers of seamen borne and mustered at different periods of our late wars, and said, if they were so imprudent as to waste the sinews of war in time of peace, probably they might not be able to send a respectable navy to sea in case of a rupture. He trusted, however, that the minister, whom he knew to be an honest man, would prevent any such pernicious abuse from prevailing, and would not let slip the moment of peace, the fittest of all moments, to look to the situation of the country. He denied that it was fair to put the case, as if Great Britain was again to have France and Spain and Holland at once at war with her, and at the same time to be wasting her fleets and armies on a ruinous war, carried on at 3,000 miles distance. He considered what had lately happened as a concussion of nature, provoked, in a great measure, by our own folly, but not very likely to happen again. Let us look at the more probable event, viz. that of France and Spain joining against us; for Holland, he did not believe, would take the sea as our enemy of a sudden. Let us then view our navy and that of the House of Bourbon. Put the case, that France and Spain had 120 sail, Great Britain only 100. A combined fleet had Colonel Barré rose to speak for the first a radical defect in it, especially a combined time since he had been deprived of sight. fleet of two powers naturally odious to The colonel began with complimenting each other. The circumstance of its fightthe country gentlemen on the high honouring under two captains, instead of one, they had done themselves, by taking up was always a capital inconvenience. These this subject as they had done. He said, circumstances considered, was there a man [VOL. XXV. ] [2 C] who would hesitate on which side he would make his election? France, it was true, was a fortified country. Why? Because her kingdom lay within the reach of the active maritime foe. France, therefore, did wisely to fortify; but in our more compact insular situation, we should be madmen to follow the example. It had been well said by a modern author, "Praise was the daughter of present power." He wondered not, therefore, at the encomiums he had heard that day. The corps of engineers was an unprotected, neglected, oppressed corps: they were under the necessity of according with the opinions of their principal; for if they gave their honest and sincere opinions, perhaps they would lose their bread. He entered into a discussion of the pay of the officers. A full colonel, he said, had no more than 18s. a day, and 9s. addition, when on actual duty; whereas all other colonels had more. A colonel in the engineers also was obliged to have a sort of establishment of his own about him, that was attended with more expense than the colonels in the regulars, who could live with each other in mess. He spoke like wise of the artillery, and said, for the noble duke at the head of the ordnance to point his economy at the corps of engineers and artillery was an ill-advised measure. Those corps were the only part of the army founded in science, scientifically brought up, and professionally learned. They ought therefore to be encouraged as much as possible, to be distributed through the army, to make science spread, and not to be harassed by new and distressing arrangements. With regard to the plan of fortifications proposed, it was a question on which the right hon. gentleman at the head of the Treasury was as competent to form a judgment as any man; it was a question of state, and, as a statesman, it was his duty to decide upon it. Let the right hon. gentleman therefore do what was proper. Let him look back to our history, and see what queen Elizabeth did for the safety of her kingdom, when an invasion was threatened; though she had a Raleigh in her service, and other great, able, and distinguished officers, she trusted not to the advice of any one of them, but profited by the collected wisdom of her naval and military servants, and convened a meeting of the most experienced and renowned, and bade them prepare a plan adapted to the danger of the crisis. Let the right hon. gentleman follow the precedent with regard to the proposed fortifications. Let him not trust the determination of its propriety in any single hands. Let him refer it to some of the ablest officers we had, both naval and military, and let their reports, after due discussion and investigation, be considered as an authority safe for that House to rely on. Of all times this was the most fit for the investigation of such a question, while our officers were green in the recollection of active service, and before they had lived in that seat of luxury and ease, long enough to forget all they knew. It was a question of great national importance, and not to be trusted solely even to the corps of engineers. The colonel enumerated the masters-general of the ordnance from the time of lord Ligonier's presiding at the board till the resignation of lord Townshend. They were, he said, men of great bravery, knowledge, and experience, and no one of them stood higher in character than lord Townshend. No man had sought for service, and courted it in every quarter of the globe, more ardently; nor had any man, he firmly believed, come out of office with cleaner hands, or a more unimpeachable integrity. Could the noble duke, the present master-general, state himself to have commanded armies, and led them on to victory? If he could not have stated himself to have stood remarkably distinguished by his service and his experience, with all his respect for his great talents and known honour, he must excuse him, if he contended that a plan of so important a nature ought to be decided by the collected wisdom of men of experienced abilities, and tried and long service. He paid the ministers many compliments. He said, the right hon. gentleman was fortifying where he ought to fortify, and he deserved the thanks of his country for the fortifications he was employed in. He was fortifying the empire, by his endeavour to knit and draw together the remaining parts of it. He was fortifying it, by rooting out the abuses of office, and more especially by scouring the channel of our worst foe, the smuggler, who defrauded the revenue, injured the fair trader, and carried the current coin of the kingdom out of it. These were true fortifications, wisely projected, and built on a firm basis. An hon. gentleman, he observed, had asked him if he knew colonel Debbeig? He knew him well, knew his worth, knew him to be honest, and he was sorry to add, knew him to be oppressed. |