with the question. What he alluded to was, the suggestions which the noble lord in the blue ribbon had dragged into the present debate so unnecessarily and improperly, on the subject of Ireland; suggestions that, with whatever motives they might have been introduced, could not but have the most mischievous tendency, inasmuch as they were calculated to spread alarms in that jealous neighbour and sister kingdom, as the noble lord had thought proper to term Ireland. He declared his astonishment how any man could rashly venture at hints of so delicate and dangerous a nature, but most especially that the noble lord should have done so, who must, from experience, have learnt the temper of Ireland, the readiness with which men's minds took alarm, and the difficulty that attended every adjustment under the present circumstances of the respective countries. No man who had any regard for the welfare of Ireland, or the common interests of the two kingdoms, he should have imagined, would have done any thing to create alarm, when there was not the slightest cause for such alarm, nor could he easily be brought to think that it was done but with a mischievous design to foment discord, and insure the continuance of disunion.

Mr. Eden said, the right hon. gentle. man's argument relative to his not having reasoned from the Navigation Act, was enough to have provoked any man to the rudeness of telling the right hon. gentleman that he had never read the Navigation Act. What had the chief stress of his argument been laid upon, but that Act, which he had quoted the language of, to prove that he was right in his view of the question? Mr. Eden read from the statute those words which he had before quoted.

Lord North also defended himself from the attack that Mr. Pitt had made upon a part of his speech. He said, he should always thank the right hon. gentleman for correcting any error he might fall into, but he should not have held the favour of that day in less estimation, if the right hon. gentleman had left out that remark, that he could not be a friend to the welfare of his country, who should presume to mention Ireland in that debate. His lordship stated, from the very wording of the title of the Bill, that Ireland was expressly comprehended in it. The words his Majesty's European dominions,' undoubtedly referred as well to Ireland as to Great Britain; so far, therefore, from the

mention of Ireland being irrelative to the question, it was as closely referable to it, as any other consideration that had been agitated. But it was evident that the right hon. gentleman had determined, that he never should open his mouth in that House, without his experiencing a most uncandid and unfair construction of his words. Instead of answering his arguments, the right hon. gentleman made it his constant practice to charge it as an intention in the noble lord to excite unnecessary clamours, to promote mischief, to create difficulty, and to embarrass government. These charges he should ever meet with a positive and flat denial. He had no such design, nor had he that day said a syllable that, fairly weighed, would be found to warrant any such construction. What he had said before, he would repeat again; the Bill clearly referred to Ireland; in what manner the clauses would be worded, he could not pretend to say, because they were not before him; but it would be an extreme delicate matter to manage. They ought to be cautiously worded, lest Ireland should take alarm, and cry out, that the British parliament ought not to legislate for them. What was there in his suggesting this, more than if he had said in plain terms: "Let his Majesty's ministers take care. I warn them of their danger! They have a difficult matter before them, and these are the peculiar circumstances that constitute the difficulty."

Mr. Fox said, it might be deemed rash and presumptuous in him, to presume to cope with the right hon. gentleman, and the learned gentleman on the bench near him, on points of law, and the construction of acts of parliament; but he thought the subject so self-evident and obvious, that he would venture the contest. He then proceeded to combat the various positions laid down in the course of the debate on the opposite side of the House, and maintained the direct reverse of most of them. He took up the cause of lord North, and supported what he had said on the subject of Ireland, asserting that the noble lord had rather deserved the thanks of the minister than his censure. He declared, for one, that he considered all the right hon. gentleman had said in such lofty language, in reprehension of his noble friend, as a collection of highsounding words signifying nothing. He added, that had the noble lord when in office, or had he when in office, received such friendly hints, previous to their

bringing in bills, perhaps many very loosely-worded acts would not now have disgraced the statute-book.

The Attorney General contended, that the order was perfectly correct. He went into the consideration of the different statutes that had been cited, and turned into ridicule an argument that Mr. Fox had used, that all colonies that were colonies to a mother country, when an existing act of parliament remained in force, were to be considered as such, till a new statute placed them in a different situaIf this position were true, Mr. Attorney said, America was now intitled to all the privileges of free-born subjects. She had as justifiable a claim to those privileges, as to the rights she formerly enjoyed under our navigation laws, which he conceived to consist of two statutes, one passed in Charles 2's reign, another in that of king William.

tion.

Mr. Eden said, it appeared to him that all the facts which had been laid down by himself and his friends had not been controverted, and that several assertions made on the opposite side of the House had not been proved. Much of what had happened might have been avoided, had they proceeded in the business regularly, and first gone into a committee of the whole House upon the subject, contented themselves with that for one day, reported the resolution the next, and so proceeded in stages with the deliberation due to a busiBess of so much importance.

Mr. Bearcroft said, he understood very little of the subject of debate, and he verily believed the gentlemen who had taken part in it on both sides the House, were more competent to discuss it than he was, or all the lawyers in Westminsterhall put together. What little he did understand, however, obliged him to express his surprise and his indignation. What he alluded to was, that of all men the noble lord in the blue ribbon should have been the person to stand up in that assembly and complain of their agitating a Bill, which professed in its title to refer to his Majesty's European dominions.' Good God! was the House, and was the country sunk so low, that the British parliament was to be afraid of discussing any bill, that professed to relate to his Majesty's European dominions, from a fear that Ireland should feel a jealousy at their doing their most essential duty? Was such a suggestion to be endured? The noble lord's remark was certainly but a

trifle; but the noble lord should have re collected, that

-Trifles light as air,

Are, to the jealous, confirmation strong,
As proofs of holy writ

Sir James Erskine defended lord North from the charge of the learned gentleman, appealing to the recollection of the House whether his noble friend had uttered a syllable, that could lend colour even to a charge against him of having found fault with the order merely because it stated the title of a bill, professing a reference to his Majesty's European dominions.

The Solicitor General said, the language of the noble lord had struck him exactly as it had struck the learned gentleman. What the noble lord had said, appeared to him to have been extremely improper. Mr. Solicitor passed an enco

mium

on Mr. Bearcroft, and said, he would venture to assert, that his learned friend would always speak an honest meaning in the language of plain sense, and never rise without giving the House that satisfaction, which constantly resulted from an obvious union of integrity and information. Mr. Solicitor spoke shortly to the question, and supported his learned leader in that part of his argument which went to the controverting of Mr. Fox's position, in regard to the relative state in which countries were legally considered to be at any given period.

Lord North rose once more to observe, that his meaning had obviously been mistaken by an honest and learned gentleman, who had lately declared himself offended at his having complained of the title of the Bill on account of it professing to refer to his Majesty's European dominions. He certainly had not made any such complaint, nor had such an idea been once in his thoughts. He had not offered the smallest objection to the title of the Bill; indeed, there could be none; all that he had done was this: he had suggested that it was a Bill of infinite importance, and that great caution ought to be used in wording it.

Mr. Eden's motion was negatived, and the Bill brought in and read a first time.

Feb. 14. Mr. Pitt moved, that the House should resolve itself into a com. mittee on the Bill. He said he did not intend to move to revive the order for the attendance of any persons to be examined as witnesses, being fully convinced that

such an examination was wholly unnecessary, and that the House might with great propriety proceed to pass the Bill, upon the notoriety of the reasons that rendered such a bill necessary.

Mr. Alderman Watson said, he had moved for several gentlemen who were respectable merchants of London, and one of them a gentleman from Canada, to attend, in order that they might afford the House that information that he conceived they ought to have, before they could judge of the necessity for passing any such bill. Those gentlemen were then attending, and would be able to prove at the bar, that no such bill was necessary; that the average prices of bread and flour in Great Britain had been consider ably cheaper than the average prices of bread and flour at Philadelphia, or in any part of the United States, for a stated number of years: that this country was fully able to supply Newfoundland with bread, flour, and live stock; but if by any accident the merchants here were prevented from sending out a proper supply of provisions, a very considerable one might be drawn from Quebec, as good and as cheap as from the United States, and that consequently there could not exist any reason why the trade of Great Britain and her colonies should be delivered over to a foreign power.

Mr.Cruger controverted the alderman's assertion relative to the province of Canada being capable of supplying Newfoundland; he knew not, he said, whether the motive for the assertion was interest, or prejudice, or that worse impulse, an inveterate attachment to the spirit of monopoly, for which some of the Canadian merchants were remarkable. He said, he left the country only last August, and while he was in Philadelphia, two ships, in which Mr. Blakes of London had a principal concern, came there to be freighted with flour for Canada, where there was a great scarcity. The flour cost 13s. the cwt. at Philadelphia, and sold for 22s. at Quebec. This was a fact which he well knew; and in order to be more correct in it, he had very lately seen Mr. Blakes in town, by whom he was assured, that a profit of 40 per cent. was made upon the cargoes. He urged the expediency of encouraging the United States to continue their commercial intercourse with us as much as possible; he said our glory depended on our wealth, and that were it not for our commerce,

we could not have afforded to have carried on a war with America for six years together, at the expense of 100 millions of money. He spoke, therefore, as a merchant, whose attachment was to Great Britain alone, and who regarded her prosperity as superior to every other consideration. He declared his wish, that the Bill might proceed as it was.

Lord North said, the present Bill did not turn upon any general principles, that would admit of general reasoning, but upon facts. The House had heard an assertion of the worthy alderman's contradicted by an assertion of the hon. gentleman who had just sat down; here, therefore, was assertion against assertion; the fact was at issue, and it remained for the House to try it. As no way could be adopted so proper for ascertaining which assertion was the true one, as hearing evidence, he hoped there would not now be any objections to the proposition.

Mr. Holdsworth explained the nature of the Bill, and its origin. He said, that all the parties interested in the subject of the Bill, viz. the merchants of London, Poole, and Dartmouth, and the merchants of Canada, had given evidence before a committee of the privy council, and that the Bill was a sort of compromise among them all.

Mr. Fox denied, that the Bill was any sort of compromise, as was evident from the present opposition to it on the part of the merchants of London, and the Canadian merchants; but from what the hon. gentleman had said, he conceived, that the House was called upon to give government confidence upon their assurance that what had come out before the committee of privy council, made the Bill proper to be passed. Now he was ready to give that confidence, provided he was sure that such confidence was necessary; and more than was necessary to be given to ministry on any occasion by that House, undoubtedly ought not to be given. Mr. Fox declared, he, for one, had not made up his mind upon the subject; and before he did so, he should be glad to hear it farther discussed. He wished, therefore, that the worthy alderman's witnesses might be heard, and perhaps it would be necessary to hear the testimony of others; not only those, who could speak on behalf of the merchants of Poole and Dartmouth, but also those who had a local knowledge of the island of Newfoundland. It might be proper to call admiral Campbell to be examined, who

could certainly have given the House a great deal of information well worth their hearing; indeed, he had some thoughts of moving for that purpose, but he did not know that the Bill would have come under consideration that day.

Mr. Jenkinson recapitulated what he had formerly mentioned upon the subject, repeating the fact of admiral Campbell's having granted permission to some ships freighted with provisions from the United States to unload, and dispose of their freight at St. John's in Newfoundland, relating likewise the progress and circumstances of the inquiry it had occasioned here at home. The committee of privy council, he said, had examined witnesses sent by all the parties interested, and had heard assertions of the most positive nature contradicted by assertions equally positively given; at length, after a long inquiry, it appeared to them to be absolately necessary to come to parliament with the business; but, as the matter required a great deal of deliberation, it was thought prudent to prepare the present Bill, and to pass it as a temporary measure to quiet the minds of all concerned, and to prevent the possibility of Newfoundland being again distressed as she was last year, in consequence of no provisions having been sent out from home; leaving the subject open for subsequent and more serious deliberation. Mr. Jenkinson stated, that Canada one year, and that nearly ten years ago, had grown and exported vast quantities of flour; but, from that time to the present, she had been obliged to send to Philadelphia and elsewhere to buy provisions; and that in fact Quebec was not a flour country. There was not much likelihood, therefore, of Canada being able to furnish Newfoundland with a complete supply, much less with a supply equal to what could be furnished from this country. Mr. Jenkinson complimented Mr. Fox on his candour.

Mr. Pitt rose to state his reasons for deeming the examinations of the gentlemen then attending unnecessary. He stated first the extreme necessity of dispatch in passing the Bill, if passed at all; then the impossibility of hearing witnesses on behalf of one of the parties interested, unless they proceeded to hear the witnesses of the other parties, which could not be done without great delay; and lastly, that the present Bill did not at all affect the interests of the several parties alluded to, because, considering the exist-.

ing law to be, that an unlimited intercourse between the United States was not prohibited by any known statute, if no Bill passed, a much larger field for competition would remain open, which could not but operate in a greater degree to the prejudice of the merchants of London, the merchants of Poole and Dartmouth, and the merchants of Canada.

Mr. Eden said, that though it was not regular to debate the propriety of admitting witnesses, when there was not yet any question for their admission before the House, he believed it would ultimately save time to blend that consideration with the discussion of the more general question for committing the Bill. Gentlemen seemed to infer, that because it was a Bill of great moment, they ought to proceed to the technical business of filling up the blanks without farther information; that because the committee of council had found it an inquiry of difficulty, and open to much contradictory evidence, it would be expedient for the House not to be troubled either with inquiries or evidence; and that because the committee of council had satisfied themselves that some measure was absolutely necessary to secure a plentiful and cheap supply of provisions to Newfoundland, the measure now brought forwards ought to be adopted by parliament without demur or hesitation; and that the doors of the House should be kept shut against a crowd of respectable merchants, although a representative of London had declared that those merchants were desirous to be heard on the proceeding. An hon. gentleman had said, that witnesses were unnecessary, because it was notorious that Quebec was not a flour country, and that flour and bread, had been sent last year from Philadelphia to Canada. It was a plain and true answer to this, that, from a severity of seasons, there had been a scarcity of corn last year in the province of Quebec; and one object of calling witnesses, was to shew that Quebec was this year well able to supply the fisheries, and at half the price which was paid last year. If Quebec was not to be a flour country, her prospect was melancholy indeed; for the unhappy and disgraceful destruction, which had been made in all her hopes of the fur trade by the provisional articles, had left her without any other resource. Gentlemen had talked of wealth being a foundation of glory; they would have expressed themselves with more propriety, if they had talked of agri

culture as the foundation of wealth. Respectable gentlemen from Canada were attending to shew that the improvements of their province would be injured by the proposed Bill; merchants of London requested also to be heard; and parliament would refuse to hear them. There was in this something so unprecedented, that he had attended to the reasons with peculiar anxiety. Those reasons all ended in this single point, that receiving evidence would occupy some time; and that it would be injurious to the fisheries if certain means of supply were not immediately settled. This argument might have come consistently enough from him, who contended that there was not at present any trade legally subsisting between the United States and the colonies; but it came strangely from those who said that the trade and intercourse was at present completely open, and not subject to any limitations. This, however, was one of those consequences which naturally result from the adoption of a mistaken principle. Besides, was it so perfectly clear that the authorizing British ships to bring provisions from North America, would tend to make provisions more plentiful in Newfoundland? Perhaps that very circumstance was most likely to add to their scarcity. The market of Newfoundland could only consume a limited quantity; every thing beyond that quantity would be a loss to the importer: and was it not probable, that the British market on this side of the Atlantic, and the American on the other, might equally hesitate, under the uncertainty of sending to a glutted market? Such hesitation would increase the scarcity which this Bill meant to remove. There was another objection; the freights of the British merchant would be lessened-the price of his fish must be raised. Another objection arose from the facilities to be given to smuggling; and another from thus quitting the old policy, and encouraging a resident inhabitancy of Newfoundland. Still, however, if the expediency were clear, it was at least right to receive the informations of the merchants upon it: was it to be feared that too much knowledge of the subject would do mischief? Still farther, if it were urgent, it did not follow that the relief might not be given in another mode, and under the discretionary powers of the council, which might be prolonged for that purpose. He insisted much on that, being extremely unwilling to introduce systems, by act of parliament, contrary to

that monopolising system, which, however described by theoretical writers, must be considered as the rock of salvation and strength to this country, under the pressure of all her debts and taxes. He would never consent to swerve from that system, without being convinced of the necessity.

Mr. M. A. Taylor rose to state, that the merchants of Poole wished exceedingly to know by what means Newfoundland was to be supplied this season, that they might then take measures accordingly. Mr. Taylor said, the Poole ships were now empty, their owners waiting to know what Bill parliament passed before they freighted; and as the time for sailing for Newfoundland was in the month of March, it was highly necessary that the Bill, if it were to pass, might pass with as little delay as possible.

Mr. Fox said, it was evident ministers had deemed some Bill necessary, and had brought in the present with a view to learn what the House thought of it. He had not made up his mind upon it; but he did not conceive it would, upon farther investigation, turn out, that a Bill was the best medium for surmounting the difficulty that had occurred. He thought it would have been better to adjust the matter by a proclamation of the King in council, especially as the object was avowed to be temporary. He wished to know why it could not be done that way?

Mr. Jenkinson said, the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor-general had been taken, and they had declared, that it could not be done by a proclamation, as the Act, enabling his Majesty in council to issue proclamations for the regulating a commercial intercourse between Great Britain and America, would expire before the object of the present Bill could be effected. Government had, therefore, no choice but to come to that House, and bring in some Bill or other.

The Speaker put the question, "That the House do resolve itself into a committee," which was carried. On the question, "That the Speaker do leave the chair,"

Mr. Alderman Watson said, he certainly should move for a witness to be called in; but, previous to his doing so, he begged leave to state, that he considered the Bill as a bill of great moment, since upon it would depend the grand question, whether Great Britain should keep her trade in her own hands, or give it to foreign powers? After expatiating at large on