which had been for some time in prepara- | agree to lose the honour of producing a tion, at the instance and under the authority of the board of control.

measure that was likely to be of benefit to the public, though he should be convinced the hon. gentleman and his friends were more capable of the task, because he and his colleagues having but one mind on the subject, would act in concert, and he had no doubt, would be able to atone, by assiduity and perseverance, for the want of that quick perception which some gentlemen thought requisite. A system was forming for correcting the abuses and enormities so loudly and justly complained of, founded upon the principles of the Bill which passed last session. The honourable House having approved on that occasion of the conduct of him and those who acted with him, he hoped they would not withdraw their confidence, nor condemn a measure before they saw it, but continue their good opinion of him until they found reason to change it.

Mr. Pitt said, that there were papers which would ascertain the estimates under each year; but none which specified the days and the circumstances in the progressional increase. If the hon. gentleman wished for the papers which were in possession of the Company, he had no objection to their being produced; but to retard the inquiries which were now making on a more enlarged scale, by particular and tedious inquiries, was what he conceived many objections to. Whenever he had occasion to mention the state of our East India settlements, he was always as ready to regard the increase of their establishments as an object of very considerable retrenchment as any other member could be, and in every view of the regulation necessary to be adopted there, he never lost sight of their enormous and Mr. Francis did not wish to press the dangerous establishments, which at the producing a voluminous parcel of papers, same time drained the coffers of the Com- or to give any unnecessary trouble; so pany, and added weight to the influence that the increase of the Bengal establishof those who were concerned in their ap- ment since 1776, was laid before the pointment. Fully sensible of the decay. House, he should be satisfied. He thereing and dangerous situation of the Com-fore agreed to amend the motion by leavpany's affairs, he and those with whom he ing out the words agreed to. had the honour to act, looked, as the means of retrieving it, to the retrenchment of their establishment; and he hoped, by the measures he should pursue, and which would come under the inspection of this House, that the retrenchment was as practicable as it was necessary. These sentiments he had always expressed; he always inculcated the necessity of retrenchment, whether he considered those establishments relative to the Company's prosperity or with reference to the politics of this country. He considered retrenchment as the means of redress of the Company's private affairs, and of overturning that unbounded patronage and power which was attempted to be raised on it, to the ruin of our affairs, and the destruction of the constitution. In the prosecution of this design, to retrench those expenses, he was happy in the concurrence of every gentleman; but he had one invincible objection, and he was ready to avow it, that he could not consent to have the honour or the conduct of this measure taken out of the hands of his Majesty's ministers, to whom it properly belonged: he did not consider that it was in a way of being better executed by other gentlemen running a race with them. He could not

Mr. Fox perfectly acquiesced with Mr. Pitt as to the necessity there was to have the confidence of that House: he had always been of that opinion, yet he had never carried his ideas so far as to suppose the House were to have such implicit confidence in the minister as not to judge for themselves. They had, indeed, within a short space, given up much; but he trusted there was still spirit enough left to maintain their right to inspect into matters of great national concern, and not to be considered as mere spectators of proceedings in which the welfare of the state was connected. He granted that the right hon. gentleman had always admitted retrenchments were highly necessary in India; but in doing that, he had done nothing more than every member had done: every person agreed to it, because it was so plain a fact, that no one could deny it the evil was generally admitted, though the enormity was not so generally known. Few could possibly think it so great, but those who were actually acquainted with it; and none were better acquainted than his hon. friend who had made the motion. It was from his knowledge of the subject that he had wished to bring plain facts before

the House, that they might not be de- | hon. mover had stated, that the allowance ceived by fallacious statements and un- and emoluments to the gentlemen, who founded assertions. The right hon. gen- had the direction of the revenue arising man had alluded to the Bill which he had from salt, were extravagant and enormous; introduced, and which he believed might yet those very allowances were fixed by at present be unpopular in that House; it the unanimous assent of the supreme might be unpopular with the public; it council, when the hon. gentleman was one was for this reason he wished an investiga- of its members, and when the House knew tion into the whole affairs of the East that for every rupee gained by the memIndia Company; that every proceeding of bers of this salt-office, the Company reathe court of directors might be examined lised nine, where formerly they did not into, and that every measure adopted by realise a shilling. He was sure the House the new board of commissioners might be would approve of the principle which aclaid before the public, because he was tuated Mr. Hastings and the hon. gentleconvinced the more the real state of the man in fixing their emoluments so high. Company's affairs became known, the less In 1776, and down to 1780, as well as for unpopular would be his Bill. He had many years before (two excepted), the Comheard that it was from modesty the board pany had realized no revenue from salt. In of commissioners withheld the advantage September, 1780, the supreme council they had been of since their establishment; unanimously agreed to adopt a plan probut this, he would not hesitate to say, was posed by Mr. Hastings, for taking the a false modesty, and he hoped, would not manufacture of salt into the Company's continue; other reports indeed, said, they hands, and allowing the gentlemen emhad been of no use; but such reports, he ployed 10 per cent. upon all they netted trusted, were not to be credited; this for the Company. The reasons for grantboard had been instituted by the Bill ing so large a per-centage were contained which was brought in to answer the in- in a minute, and a letter to the directors, tended purposes of the one he had just signed by the hon. gentleman himself, and alluded to a new court of judicature, a the following was an exact copy of it: court perfectly new in this country, was "That as the advantage to be derived from likewise established by it, and upon this this plan to the Company will depend on Bill the new regulations which were to be the quantity of salt manufactured, and the brought forward, were to be founded; and economy observed in the management of this information seemed to be thought the business, it will be advisable to afford sufficient for gentlemen to rest satisfied, the comptroller and agents some particular and not attempt to inquire farther. Were inducements to give their utmost attention the House to submit to that, they must to both these objects; that for this purindeed have that implicit confidence which pose they be allowed to draw, besides the right hon. gentleman seemed to lay their fixed salaries, a commission of 10 claim to; this was a confidence, however, per cent." &c. What, Sir, added major which he trusted would never be enjoyed Scott, has been the consequence? After by him or any other person; for how were paying all these salaries and the 10 per they to know whether the regulations were cent. the Company have a net revenue of right or wrong, whether they were likely 540,000l. a year, where before they had to be of advantage or not, if they did not no revenue at all, but sustained an annual inquire into the subject? It was certainly loss. Another observation of the hon. the duty of every member to gain as much gentleman was equally wonderful: he had information as possible, that he might be expressed astonishment that the advanenabled to do justice to his constituents. tages to army pay-masters were so great; This information they would receive by but the House will be surprised when I the papers which his hon. friend had inform them, that I was officially sent by moved for, and being in possession of such Mr. Hastings to the hon. gentleman in information when the propositions were May or June, 1780, to communicate Mr. laid before them for their approbation, Hastings's plan, which was, that no army they would be able to judge whether they pay-masters should in future retain any merited their sanction or not. balances in their hands, but that in lieu of them they should have a per-centage on their disbursements; this per-centage was increased by the war, and are now reduced by the peace. How the hon. gentleman,

Major Scott declared to God, that nothing which he had at any time heard in that House had astonished him so much as the speech of the hon. mover. The

Mr. Francis answered, that the plan of paying the salt agents by a per. centage on their sales or collections, was proposed to him in September 1780, two months before he left Bengal, when he interfered but little in measures that were to operate long after his departure; that the principle might be a good one, and that this was all he had consented to; that the application of it might be, and actually was, abusive in the highest degree; that no previous calculation of the probable profits of the salt agencies had been made, nor could the actual amount of those profits be known, until at least a year after he had left Bengal; but that when they were known, they ought to have been retrenched, whereas they had been suffered to continue at their present exorbitant amount for three years together, and were still going on at the same rate.

if he has any recollection, can object to this, is to me most astonishing. There is another observation, which if it had been made by a gentleman not versed in the affairs of India, I should have passed by unnoticed; but the hon. gentleman knows, because he has accurately examined the account on your table, that no less a sum than 127,6031. which are entered under the head of civil establishments,' are truly and strictly military; that in no estimate of receipts and disbursements, in no account kept in India or in England, were they, until the present moment, included under the head of civil establishments; and the hon. gentleman, I hope, will excuse me, if I he misleads say, the House, when he mixes them with civil charges.-The hon. gentleman expresses pleasure to see the military charges reduced so low as they are; but he doubts the fact, and thinks they are much higher, Mr. Burke said, that whenever the conbecause the last estimate of receipts and sideration of India affairs came before the disbursements, that is, from April, 1783, House, he could but lament that his hon. to May, 1784, states them at above three friend (Mr. Francis), who was so perfect millions, and now they are reduced to a master of their actual situation abroad, to a little more than one. On this head I should be unengaged from their service. hope I shall satisfy the hon. gentleman He gave a variety of reasons why he and the House. We all know the differ- thought the papers moved for ought to be ence between war and peace, and what produced it was not, he said, that his the extraordinarics of an army are. When hon. friend might have an opportunity of the estimate was dated, it was war; peace running a race with the other side of the was soon after established, and the follow- House (because he was sure, when he ing reductions took place in 1783: three wished to run, it would be with those who entire regiments of cavalry were dis- had some kind of speed), that he was for banded; six regiments of foot were dis- their being laid on the table; but that banded; every regiment in Bengal re- those gentlemen, who had not hitherto duced from 1,000 to 780 rank and file examined into the actual facts, might not each. The contingencies, which the hon. any longer be deceived. He said the right gentleman knows are so high in time of hon. gentleman on the other side had war, Had ceased with the war. The Bom- often appeared to him as surrounded by bay detachment was returned and reduced, the stars of the East, but he trusted he which was a saving alone of 400,000l. a should soon see the sun of the constitution year. If the hon. gentleman will compute arise, when their splendour would be no all these savings, and transfer 127,000l. more. He was not surprised that another from the civil head to the military, he will right hon. gentleman should be against find the aggregate perfectly exact; but the production of papers, because he had for the hon. gentleman to state that the been a fellow labourer with him in produccivil establishment is 900,000l. a year, ing reports which had been called libels, when he knows that of that sum 127,000l. and every other epithet that rancour ought to be transferred to the military could invent; it might, therefore, be judihead, that 76,000l. is for the salt-office, cious in him to prevent the appearance of by which a revenue of 540,000l. a year any more. On a former period, he had has been created, where a shilling was not regretted the non-attendance of the chaircollected before, and that the remainder man of the India Company, or his deputy, of the sum includes civil, commercial, and on days when matters concerning them courts of justice; I say, Sir, to state it as were agitated in that House; he found he the hon. gentleman (who knows better) had the same cause for regret that day; has done, is to deceive and mislead this for, however great might be his opinion House. of an hon, member, he could not say

he

worse than folly. As to the whole accounts, he longed for an inquiry into the particulars, and was anxious it should be commenced; and with respect to Mr. Hastings's letter, and the accounts of expenses incurred by him, which were boná fide public expenses, when that came forward, he should appeal to the honour and the conscience of the hon. gentleman to say, whether he did not, bona fide, believe Mr. Hastings had expended in the public service every rupee he had now charged the Company.

conversant with military affairs, could be ignorant of the difference between war and peace establishments. He desired the hon. gentleman to tell the House what grounds he had for supposing that the peace establishment now was higher than when he was in Bengal, except as to the pay of European officers, who must necessarily continue. Major Scott declared he made an ample allowance for them also, when he said that the directors were warranted in stating all their military expenses within 1,100,000l. The hon. gentleman wondered why the paper he moved Mr. Francis said, it was very extrafor several days ago was not yet pro- ordinary, that whenever he thought it his duced; he did not wonder at all that it duty to move for papers relative to India, had not yet appeared. The hon. gentle- or to say a word that bore reference to the man said, that he was sure such an ac- concerns of the Company, he was to be count was made out at the India-house: answered by the hon. gentleman, just as this he denied; but perhaps he alluded to if there was a personal contest between the accounts brought forward to the di- them, and that it was to be carried on in rectors, which, though possibly very pro- that House. He knew very well, and per for that court to consider, were too the world knew, that the hon. gentleman full of nonsense and absurdity for any man represented Mr. Hastings, and acted as to venture to put upon the table of that his agent in a manner extremely able and House. In fact, those accounts ought zealous; but he had not before heard that never to have gone beyond the directors; the hon. gentleman was likewise agent to but he had seen and analyzed them, and the court of directors. The chief part of so, he doubted not, had the hon. gentle- his speech, and that part to which the hon. man; and he would venture to assert, that gentleman had directed his reply, was a no man who valued his character would series of animadversions on the court of ever bring them upon their table under the directors, in whose defence he had not an head of expenses in the civil depart- idea that the hon. gentleman held himself ment; for the heads which the chairman bound to stand up an advocate, or that he produced were, civil, military, revenue, considered himself as their representative. salt, and commercial. He would illus-But it was plain, what he had said was a trate this by a single remark, which the wound that went to the hon. gentleman's hon. gentleman would perfectly compre heart; it had been felt by the hon. gentlehend. Under the head of governor-general man, and his feelings would not suffer him was, first, his salary, 25,000l. a year; to sit still, even when a mere order for next, the rent of a house, 1,800l. a year, papers was under consideration. With resince 1778, to which the hon. gentleman gard to the arrangement of parts of the consented, because he knew that, Mr. Hast-military, under the head of the civil estaings's government-house being invariably turned to a durbar, he had not a spare room in which he could turn himself round. This was strictly a civil charge. Then followed aids-de-camp, secretary, and interpreter, a regiment of infantry, and the only troop of cavalry in our service. He would ask the hon. gentleman, if in any account in India or in England, these last heads were made part of civil charges? He was sure the absurdity and folly of such an account must strike the hon. gentleman. When the military accounts were taken up, if Mr. Hastings had too many aids-de-camp, if neither the cavalry nor infantry were wanted, strike them off; but to include them under a civil head of charge was something

blishment, and the other causes stated to account for the charge of 927,9451. for the civil establishment, being a fallacious, absurd, and nonsensical mode of statement; be it so. At whose door did the fallacy, the absurdity, and the nonsense lie? Not at his, but at the door of the court of directors, who had made up the statement, then upon the table, in that manner. In one part of his speech, the hon. gentle man had appealed to his personal honour, and asked, whether he was not of opinion that Mr. Hastings had paid out of his own purse the several expenses which he stated in his letter? In answer to this appeal, which was a singular one, he believed Mr. Hastings might have so defrayed them;