1349] A. D. 1786. [1350 England were necessitated to be economical. He had examined the account of the civil list debt, and had seen inserted in it some articles, which, upon the face of them, appeared rather extraordinary. He found an entry of 1,0291. for three quarters salary of the master of the hawks, and the very next article was only 15l. for the salary for the same period of time of a very useful officer of that House, the gentleman who usually sat in the place of the present chairman. The extravagant disproportion between these two entries, struck him so forcibly, that he thought it highly necessary the expenditure of the civil list should undergo a revision. Under this idea, he trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would bring forward an inquiry directly tending to a discovery, whether it might not prove possible, in some degree, to lessen the expenses of the civil list. Message respecting the Civil List Debt. that out of the sum of 900,000l. per ann. for that service, an annual deduction of 50,000l. should be made for the purpose of paying off, by instalments of that amount, a debt of 550,000l. due on Exchequer bills which had been issued for the payment of former debts. These once discharged, the whole of the 900,000l. was to be applied to the purposes of the civil list. From hence it followed, either that Parliament had ordained, that at a future period, the civil list was to be allowed a sum of 50,000l. more than was necessary, or that for the present, it was to be put on a footing of 50,000l. less than what was necessary. Experience had proved the latter to be the case; for the fact was, that it had been found perfectly impracticable to meet all the demands with 850,000l., and in consequence, there had accrued a fresh debt of 30,000l. over and above what remained unpaid of the Exchequer-bills due upon it, which amounted to 180,000l., making together 210,000. He should therefore move, for a sum of that extent to be granted to defray all incumbrances, and so leave the full sum of 900,000l. annually for the civil list. He then moved, 1. "That 180,000. be granted to his Majesty, for paying off and discharging the Exchequer-bills made out by virtue of the Acts of the 22nd and 23rd of his present Majesty. 2. That 30,000l. be granted to his Majesty, to discharge the arrears and debts due and owing upon the civil list, upon the 5th of January, 1786." Mr. Drake expressed his concern at finding occasion to say one word like an objection to the present motion: no man felt more for the sensations which must necessarily agitate the royal breast on being obliged to send such a message to that House: no man felt more loyalty to his Sovereign: no man loved him better than he did: the blameless tenor of his private life eminently distinguished him as a good, a moral, a virtuous, and religious prince, and intitled him to the affection of all his subjects, and to the most respectful attention of that House, whose duty it was to take care that nothing should be wanting, in their power to grant, for the increase of his ease, and the completion of his domestic happiness. But the pressing necessities of the times rendered economy indispensably necessary: all ranks must make it their first object; it was the duty of the Crown in particular to set the example; the poor people of Mr. Pitt said, that he concurred in opinion that the expenses of the civil list, and its excess beyond the limits appointed by Parliament, ought always to be regarded with the greatest jealousy. As to the two articles which the hon. gentleman had contrasted, he assured him, that the office of keeper of the hawks was not retained either from necessity, or from views of state and magnificence, but because it was a patent employment, granted so long ago as the reign of king Charles 2, and hereditary in the family of the duke of St. Alban's. Mr. W. Stanhope begged leave to remind the House, that when lord John Cavendish had come down in 1782, and called that House to vote 300,000l. upon (the debt at that time incurred on account of his Majesty's civil list) he had been on the eve of pledging himself, that no application should again be made to Parliament on the same subject; when he advised the noble lord, by no means to commit himself in that manner; suggesting to him at the same time, the probability of occasions ensuing which would make it impossible for him not to be obliged to come down with additional claims: the noble lord in consequence followed his advice, and did not so commit himself. The Prince of Wales had 50,000l. a year out of the civil list; as he was unmarried, he thought that establishment sufficient, and hoped there would be no claim for debts on that account, though the prince was building him a finer house, he feared, than he could well afford, with his present income; but, however, he should have no objection to hear of his royal highness's selling some Cornish manors, and building one good house in London with the produce. Mr. Powys confessed himself aware of the indelicacy, if not disrespect, of seeming to object against the motion; but he could not help lamenting the necessity which occasioned such a message, and that chiefly on account of the bad precedent which such messages established: besides, it was the undoubted duty of every member to watch claims like the present, and be satisfied that they were founded in actual necessity. Before, therefore, he should give his consent to the motion, he expected to hear the right hon. gentleman pledge himself that he had done his utmost to prevent unnecessary expenses. Was he to believe, that no ambassadors had been appointed to foreign courts, and maintained on high salaries, while they were in fact perfectly inefficient, and had not even once, for years together, reached the court to which they were appointed ambassadors ? Another circumstance required explanation: a right hon. gentleman (Mr. Eden) had been lately fixed upon to settle a commercial treaty with France; the right hon. gentleman in question certainly was as well qualified for such a task as any man in the country, and so far he must admit, that a better choice could not have been made; but there was a noble duke, who was before and still continued ambassador to the Court of Versailles. He had ever understood, that commercial as well as political matters, in general, were under the care of the ambassador; and if the noble persons sent out on that high station, either had not leisure, or were not competent to enter into the detail of commercial concerns and manage negociations of that nature, care was taken to let them have a secretary, or some person about them, who was, and not to put the country to the expense of two ambassadors: he hoped therefore, the committee would hear what the amount of the new appointment was. With regard to the future also, he trusted that the right hon. gentleman would pledge himself that no farther debt should be incurred. Mr. Pitt said, that the hon. gentleman who spoke last, acted laudably in watching the civil list expenditure; it was a fit object of parliamentary jealousy, and he hoped that the House ever would look it most carefully. As to his pledging to himself that there had been no wanton waste of the civil list, it was a thing which he could very safely do, because every degree of economy was used, as well in that as in every other department. With respect to the two particular instances which the hon. gentleman had mentioned, he could fully answer all the objections on those heads. And first, as to the appointment of the earl of Chesterfield, which he supposed was what the hon. gentleman had in view, to the office of ambassador to the Court of Madrid, the circumstances attending that appointment were such as, he flattered himself, fully justified the measure. At the time of the noble earl's nomination, it was fully supposed that an ambassador would be sent from Spain; nor was there any room to suspect otherwise until after his departure. When it was found that an ambassador had not been sent from Madrid, the noble earl was stopped from proceeding any farther; but as there was still great reason to believe, that it was only a temporary delay on the part of the Spanish Court, and that an appointment would speedily be made, it was thought improper to recall him. At length, as soon as it was found to be the resolution of the king of Spain, not to send an ambassador at all, the noble earl was finally recalled. With respect to the appointment of Mr. Eden as envoy extraordinary to the Court of France, for the purpose of settling the commercial treaty, he must observe, that there were many precedents of the appointment of two ambassadors to the same court; and surely on the present occasion, there was as great a necessity for a second appointment as there could be on any other, when it was considered, that the person appointed was universally acknowledged to be the most proper person in the kingdom. It was by no means derogatory to the merit of the duke of Dorset to say, that from the infinite detail into which the discussion of the commercial treaty must necessarily go, and the great knowledge of the minutia of trade which it must require, it was not a subject which persons of his grace's high rank and situation in life had such means of being acquainted with, as those whose habits and studies had been assiduously directed to such objects. Nor could the nature of the right hon. gentleman's appointment be found fault with, for his rank as a privy counsellor rendered it impossible, with propriety, to send him in a hereafter be made, there could be no argument against the granting it, from any consideration of the ample provision already allowed to the civil list. Mr. Alderman Newnham trusted that the right hon. gentleman did not mean to say, that if it should be found that the income of the Prince of Wales was too small for his royal highness to live upon, in a manner becoming his high rank and station, that no application should hereafter be made to that House to vote an increase of it. Mr. Pitt answered, that the question before the House solely related to the subject matter of his Majesty's message, and no reference whatsoever to any other object. subordinate capacity. There was a farther pledge demanded from him by the hon. gentleman, which he must excuse him if he declined making in the extent required. To take upon himself to give a pledge, that the expenses of the civil list should never exceed the limits at present set to it by Parliament, would be more than he should think justifiable: all that he could say was, that on the articles stated in the returns upon the table, there should be no future exceedings; but it was possible, that there might arise a necessity, at some future time, of making demands to satisfy extraordinary expenses which could not be foreseen; but if ever the should come forward with such demands, he should take care that they should prove of a nature which no gentleman could find fault with. Such instances might occur in the arrangements for different branches of the Royal family: not that he knew of any likely to take place; but as they possibly might, and that perhaps to the joy and advantage of the country, he could not venture to tie himself up by a promise, that they never I would. As to the state of the civil list in general, he thought it sufficient to say, that should the present resolution be complied with, the expenses ought to be bounded within the sum granted for the purpose of defraying them. Mr. Powys desired to know if he was to understand that the right hon. gentleman had pledged himself to the House, that no farther debt should be incurred, at least during the time he held his present office; but that the ordinary expenses of the civil list should be confined within the 900,000l. a year? Mr. Pitt answered, that when he spoke of accidental demands which might be made for the deficiencies of the civil list, he did not wholly confine himself to such extraordinary calls as might arise for the several branches of the Royal family; for there were others in which the Royal family were not at all concerned, that might possibly come, and with which it would be indispensably necessary to comply. To make this the more intelligible, he would state an instance; not one which he had any apprehension would take place, but being possible, it shewed how highly improper it would prove for any minister to commit himself, as he had been called upon to do this was in the article of foreign secret service money; under which head, if even a very great demand should Mr. Sheridan begged leave to remind the right hon. gentleman, that he had misunderstood him on a former day, when he had talked of the right hon. gentleman's having pledged himself that there should be no future debt accrue from the civil list. He then drew an inference from what the right hon. gentleman had that day said, that if the Prince of Wales. should find his income too small, and application should be made to that House, that the right hon. gentleman was of opinion it ought to be increased, and any debts which his royal highness might have incurred, paid. Mr. Pitt again repeated, that having had no instructions on the subject of his royal highness's establishment, he could not take upon him to speak officially, nor should he be so presumptuous as to express any private opinion whatsoever concerning it. Mr. Sheridan declared, that he should still understand, that if any debts incurred by his royal highness were to be, in future, stated by the right hon. gentleman, whether by message from the Crown, or by any other proper authority, they were to be considered as extraordinaries of the civil list, and not within the right hon. gentleman's present pledge. Mr. Burke's Bill for regulating the civil list, expressly said, that no debt should be incurred upon it in future. It was absurd to come down in the face of an act of parliament, and call upon the House to vote money for debts of the Crown. The right hon. gentleman ought either to bring in a bill to explain and amend, or ask for no more money on the civil list account. shrewdly suspected that as 30,000l. was the precise debt now asked for, that the He expense of keeping the earl of Chesterfield for two years nominal ambassador to the Court of Madrid, and the expense of sending out Mr. Eden to negociate the treaty of commerce, occasioned that debt: and what led him to form this conjecture was, because the sums squared so well together, the expense on the noble earl's account being 25,000l.; and the other 5,000l. He gave the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Eden) credit for possessing great knowledge of the subject, and being exceedingly fit to negociate the treaty; but it nevertheless behoved the right hon. gentleman to be able to assure the House, that so large a sum of the public money would not be wasted, but that he had good reason to believe the treaty would be made, and the object of his mission would be answered. The Resolutions were agreed to. April 6. The said Resolutions were reported to the House, and read a first time. On the question being put, that they be read a second time, either of which actions were highly criminal.-He said he could not avoid touching on a subject which he understood had been mentioned the day before—the esta blishment of his royal highness the Prince of Wales; and he professed that it was not so much from motives of gratitude for the confidence and condescension with which his Royal Highness honoured him, nor from the affection which he bore him for his many amiable qualities, but because he really thought it highly neces sary for the honour of the Crown and advantage of the nation, that the heir apparent should be enabled to live in splendour and in ease: and there could be no friend to the monarchical part of our constitution, who did not wish to make a full provision for supporting the dignity of a person so nearly connected with the monarchy. In the reign of George 1, although the civil list at that time was only 700,000l. a year, 100,000l. of it was allowed to the prince of Wales, afterwards George 2; and yet, now that the civil list was so considerably increased as to amount to Mr. Fox remarked, that although he 900,000l. a year, besides an additional did not entertain the most distant idea of aid of 50,000%. in amount at least, arising discountenancing any grant in favour of from the salaries of the offices suppressed Majesty, he could not forbear to express by Mr. Burke's Bill falling in, the income his astonishment at finding a demand of of the prince of Wales was only 50,000!. that kind made by the Crown after the If his Majesty could not make 850,000/ promise contained in the speech from the cover his expenses, how could it be exthrone, at the beginning of the session of pected that the Prince of Wales could 1782, that there should in future be no live upon 50,000l.? His Royal Highexceeding in that department; the words ness's household establishment was more of which promise were as explicit as words expensive, compared with his contracted could possibly be, and ran thus: "I have income, than that of his Majesty, comcarried into execution the several reduc-pared with the large amount of the civil tions of my civil list expenses, directed by an act of the last session. I have introduced a farther reform into other departments, and suppressed several sinecure places in them. I have by this means so regulated my establishments, that my expense shall not in future exceed my income." These words were a part of the speech at the opening of the first session after the earl of Shelburne was first lord of the Treasury, and the right hon. gentleman opposite to him Chancellor of the Exchequer; and it was evident from the subject of the motion then before the House, that the promise contained in them had not been performed; so that either his Majesty's ministers had advised him to make a promise to Parliament which it was impossible for him to keep; or they had advised him to break a promise which he might have adhered to; list, and the other sums which came in aid of it; 50,000 was, he confessed, equal to the establishment first granted to Frederick prince of Wales; but that prince's establishment was known to be extremely inadequate, and was therefore afterwards increased; and, besides, the expense of living had risen considerably since that time. He knew no proper method of bringing the business before the House, except by message from the Crown, and he earnestly hoped ministers would advise his Majesty accordingly. If they did not, he should himself venture to introduce the business previous to the rising of parliament. Mr. Gilbert said, that he had been appealed to the day before by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at a time when, from his situation, he could not offer his sentiments to the House with propriety some specific reason why the civil list had been suffered to run in arrear. This, he He then stated that at the request of the earl of Shelburne and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he had for-apprehended, was a duty which the noble merly held the same employment as he = did then, he had examined the state of the I civil list, and in consequence of his report upon it, a great number of salaries had been diminished, and many sinecure places = entirely abolished. The Resolutions were agreed to by the House. Debate in the Lords on the King's Message respecting the Civil List Debts.] April 5. The King's Message having been read, Lord owed to the House and his country. He was the more particular in his request, because, since passing the Bill in 1782, by virtue and authority of which the reform of the civil list had taken place, no less a sum than 10,000l. annually had fallen into that revenue by the death of pensioners, &c. His lordship then reverted to the calculation of the civil list expenditure, which had been made at the time the Bill passed, and which was then said, under the reform, to leave an annual saving of 10,000l. per annum. He had canvassed that calculation, in conjunction with several of his noble friends in the succeeding Administration, and upon the nicest scrutiny, he discerned about the annual sum of 250. He apprehended that it would be easy to account for this wide difference in the conclusion drawn from the estimate alluded to. In the first place, the embassy to Holland was totally annulled; this was at least 3,000l. per ann. In the next instance, the article of 1 presents to foreign ministers was averaged at only 500l. per year, which he was assured was considerably less than the real expense. When he had, on the first appearance of the calculations, discovered such a want of correctness, he naturally concluded, that similar errors pervaded the whole system. He wished that the civil list should not be limited to the paltry narrow excess of 250l. annually; it was an idea utterly unworthy of great and free people: the branches of the Royal family ought most certainly to be supported with becoming splendour and magnificence. The expenses of the embassies abroad ought not, in his opinion, to be regulated with parsimonious economy; it was incon Lord Sydney said, that as it was for the honour and credit of the nation, to prevent his Majesty's civil list from falling into arrear, it was therefore scarcely needful to enlarge upon the subject; he should therefore immediately move, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to return his Majesty the thanks of this House for his most gracious Message, and to assure his Majesty of the dutiful and affectionate attachment of this House to his Majesty's person and government; and firmly relying on his constant attention to the ease and welfare of his faithful people, that this House will readily concur in enabling his Majesty to provide such means as shall be thought proper to remove the difficulties occasioned by this debt contracted in his civil government." Viscount Stormont said, he had always considered any embarrassment upon the civil list as a national disgrace and misfortune; but before he gave his vote upon this motion, he wished the clerk might read that part of his Majesty's speech from the throne the 5th of December, 1782, which related to the civil list. The clerk then read-" I have carried into strict execution the several reductions insistent with the dignity of a crowned head, my civil list expenses, directed by an Act of the last session: I have introduced a farther reform into other departments, and suppressed several sinecure places in them. I have by this means so regulated my establishments, that my expense shall not in future exceed my income." He did not mean to oppose this part of his Majesty's specch to the motion before the House; but he expected after so full and explicit an assurance from his Majesty, and that, too, at a time when the noble Lord who made the motion enjoyed a very distinguished situation in Administration, that the noble Lord would have stated to limit its representatives to 5. a day. He supposed this to proceed from an opinion that embassies should be undertaken only by men whose fortune rendered the expense by no means an object of consideration. This was a doctrine to which he could by no means accede: there were many instances in the history of our country which clearly evinced, that men of the largest fortunes were not always the best suited to fill great and arduous public situations. The poverty of Walsingham, in the glorious reign of Elizabeth, was proverbial; sir William Temple was by no means rich; most of the noble lords must |