I was absent from the State of Illinois, on a trip to Europe, from about March 17 until May 12, 1926. On June 30, 1926, I gave the Commonwealth Edison Co. my personal check for $190,000 to repay said amount of $172,925.19, which I had so borrowed, together with other items of indebtedness owing from me to the company. This check was on the Illinois Merchants Trust Co., of Chicago, and I now tender the check to the committee for its inspection.

All of the $65,000 contributed to influence the nominations for local offices in Cook County was furnished by me, partly from my own funds and partly from money which I borrowed at the time and have since repaid.

The CHAIRMAN. Your last sentence in that statement ends, "partly from my own funds and partly from money which I borrowed at the time and have since repaid." Did you get that also from the Commonwealth Edison Co.?

Mr. PORTER. I advise the witness not to answer.

The CHAIRMAN. Your counsel has stated that he advises you not to answer the last question I asked. Do you refuse to answer? Mr. INSULL. I refuse to answer, on the advice of counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will have to direct you to answer the question, Mr. Insull.

Mr. INSULL. I refuse to answer.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not personally follow any of this money which is embraced in the total of $237,925.19, so that you actually know of your own knowledge how it was expended?

Mr. INSULL. Do you mean, did I see it actually spent?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is what I mean.

Mr. INSULL. No.

The CHAIRMAN. All that you know about the expenditure is that you gave it to certain parties, chiefly through your attorney, Mr. Schuyler, to be used for certain purposes, and that Mr. Schuyler did deliver the money to these certain individuals; is that right?

Mr. INSULL. I think you said that I gave it mainly to Mr. Schuyler. I want to answer your question.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly; certainly.

Mr. INSULL. I would say partly through Mr. Schuyler, because you will find that I testified, and others have testified, as to getting money direct from me.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to get my question to conform to the facts. You gave the various sums of money which constitute the $237,925.19, partly to your attorney, and you gave it partly to different individuals; and you gave it to them for certain purposes that you understood it would be employed for; that is correct, is it not? Mr. INSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know of your own knowledge what these individuals did with the money?

Mr. INSULL. No. It would be, naturally, impossible for me to know.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to know. You declined to give this committee the names of certain of these persons to whom you gave this money, so that, having those names, they can summon the persons and ascertain as a matter of fact to what use the money was put?

Mr. INSULL. Yes; I declined in my previous testimony, and I still decline.

The CHAIRMAN. And upon that position you stand, and refuse to answer any questions relating to that subject?

Mr. INSULL. Relating to those contributions to the local county offices.

The CHAIRMAN. Contributions that you gave to persons you will not name, and you do not know how those persons actually spent the money?

Mr. INSULL. Naturally, I could not know if I was not there when they were spending it.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. INSULL. I have given the amounts that I paid.

The CHAIRMAN. But you refuse now to give us the names, as you have heretofore refused?

Mr. INSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Although the committee has directed you in the past and now again for the sake of the record directs you to answer? Mr. INSULL. Well, I must refuse to answer.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Insull, the check you have produced I will ask the reporter to mark as an exhibit.

(The check referred to was marked "Insull Exhibit No. 1.") The CHAIRMAN. I will read the check into the record. [Read

ing:]

2-4.

Chicago, June 30, 1926. No. 16961.

Illinois Merchants Trust Company 2-4.

Pay to the order of Commonwealth Edison Company $190,000.00.
Exactly one hundred ninety thousand dollars no cents.

(Signed)

SAMUEL INSULL.

Upon the face of the check are two circles, within which are the letters "EFD."

On the back of the check appears the following [reading]:

Commonwealth Edison Company, G. W. Williamson, treasurer. Paid through Chicago Clearing House, 64464, June 30, 1926, to Illinois Merchants Trust Company.

Paid through Chicago Clearing House, P-4-M July 2, 1926, checkers to Illinois Merchants Trust Company.

Judge, I would like to have this photostated, and will be personally responsible to see that the original is returned.

Mr. PORTER. Very well.

The CHAIRMAN. The statement which the witness read, for the sake of accuracy, may be marked "Exhibit 2" of these hearings. (The statement referred to was marked "Insull Exhibit No. 2.") The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions you want to ask, Senator McNary?

Senator MCNARY. Nothing at all. You have covered it very well, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you deliver an address or make a statement to the stockholders of the Peoples Gas Light & Coke Co. on or about February 23, 1927?

Mr. INSULL. That would be last Wednesday. I presided at the annual meeting of the stockholders of the Peoples Gas Light & Coke Co. and delivered, as I usually do, an address reviewing the condition of the business and making such personal explanations in connection with my stewardship as their president as I might think it necessary to do, and if it would interest you at all I would be very glad to supply you with the shorthand notes when I get back to Chicago, of exactly what I stated.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I probably have all the data I need. Did you afterwards give an interview to a representative of the Chicago Daily Tribune?

Mr. INSULL. I refused to be interviewed by the representative of the Chicago Daily Tribune.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make some statement to him?

Mr. INSULL. No. I said I had nothing to say.

The CHAIRMAN. In this speech or statement that you made to your directors

Mr. INSULL. My stockholders.

The CHAIRMAN. Your stockholders-did you say substantially this [reading]:

For the last six months I have been the subject of more or less discussion and notoriety in the press of the country and an inquiry by a committee of the Senate of the United States. The criticisms and inquiries refer to matters that are still under discussion, and that may finally call for some legal action.

I therefore can not go into the matter in any detail, but I want to assure the stockholders of the Peoples Gas Light & Coke Co. that, whatever I have done, I have done strictly within my rights as a citizen of the United States. [Applause.] And whatever course I have pursued or may pursue in relation to the Senatorial inquiry, that course is taken after consultation not only with my own counsel, but with some of the most distinguished counsel at the American

bar.

Do you remember making that statement?

Mr. INSULL. That is substantially what I stated, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Were reporters present at this meeting? Mr. INSULL. There usually are reporters present at the meeting, and the usual procedure, in the interest of accuracy as to statements made, is to have shorthand notes taken of the proceedings, or, rather, my speech, and this same course is pursued at any other annual meetings of any other companies that I preside over, and then copies are handed to the press afterwards; and that is why I am in a position to say that if you would like to have a copy I would be delighted to send it on when I get home.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make a statement, in substance and effect, as follows: That you "would not be surprised to be told later that some of it-that is, the $40,000-went to the Small-Lundin faction. Senator Reed went very lightly on that group. Two or three witnesses were interrogated for each other Republican faction, but Mr. Reed called only Lundin and Coffin."

Mr. INSULL. I never made any such statement, and, as a matter of fact, I did not know such a statement had been published until you read it from some newspaper.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any request to make of the committee, or do you desire the committee to proceed further with the examination of any witnesses or persons connected with the so-called Lundin faction?

Mr. INSULL. I have not any desire to ask the committee-I have not any request to make of the committee with reference to any faction. What you have just read, if it was put into my mouth, is like lots of other things that are put into my mouth.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to be fair with you and I want the record to be fair. This article does not say that you said it, but it says that somebody said it, and I wanted to know whether you had said it.

Mr. INSULL. No, sir. I did not know it was even published.

The CHAIRMAN. It is all right for anybody to say it, but if you or any one connected with this investigation thinks that the committee should examine additional witnesses, the committee desires to know that fact.

Mr. Insull, I think that that is all the committee desires to ask you. I am very sorry you are standing on your refusal.

Mr. INSULL. I am very sorry that I feel, as a matter of conscience, that I have got to. I would like to say to the committee that I have tried to supply them with all the information that could possibly be required of me, irrespective of my own personal convenience or irrespective of any effect on myself.

The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry the committee can not agree with you about that.

During your examination, and referring to your testimony which you had just given, and in which you have declined to tell what had been done with the $40,000, the chairman of the committee ventured to make this suggestion [reading]:

I think you had better go to these gentlemen whom you accommodated in this matter and get relieved from any obligation of honor and come and tell this committee. The committee does not want to proceed to extremities, but as this situation stands it will have to go as far as it can to get this evidence, and you understand this is not at all in the nature of a threat, because it is not so meant. It is in the nature of a kindly suggestion.

Have you, during the interval which has elapsed since your last examination, made any effort to get any of the persons to whom you gave money, whose names you have declined to disclose, to release you from what you are pleased to call an obligation of honor? Have you made any effort to do that?

Mr. INSULL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. I think that is all, gentlemen of the committee.

(Whereupon, at 11 o'clock a. m., the committee adjourned.)

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