position that they take they use money or influence in the election of people to carry out some private program, or some public program, if that money is used in that campaign, then it seems to me that it is just as material as if it was used in the question of a copper tariff or private desire for gain, or any other purpose.

Senator KING. Well, I am sure that it will not be at all material, as I regard it, for the introduction of evidence to show that the newspapers of California had opposed, if it were a fact, Governor Hunt or anybody else, because they had opposed the ratification of the compact. Why, no doubt the papers of California have published many articles against the officials of this State because of their hostility to the compact. Democratic newspapers published articles in opposition to President Coolidge's attitude in regard to the flexible tariff. Thousands of articles are published in opposition to that view of his. If a contest were on involving the election of President Coolidge, I am sure that it would be immaterial to show that a lot of newspapers had opposed his view and denounced him because of that fact. If you can show that money has been brought into this State and expended for the purpose of corrupting the election, that is one thing, but I don't understand the materiality of what you are indicating now.

Mr. CROAFF. I haven't got to that point, Senator, to that special question. I was only leading up to it. I do not desire to try and force into the record anything that this committee thinks is not

proper.

Senator KING. I think we understand each other very well. We have gotten along nicely. The chairman is quite satisfied with the view taken by the gentlemen. You have been very fair.

Mr. CROAFF. But if we are permitted, we want to show what information we had, Judge, with reference to the use of money in the furthering of the program, looking toward the election or defeat of a United States Senator in Arizona, through the influence in California, concerned in the Colorado River. If that is beyond the issues in this case, why

Senator KING. Well, I will let you proceed a little, but I warn you that you may be getting into a field that will necessitate a very prolonged investigation of this witness.

Mr. CROAFF. We don't desire to simply open the door and then be shut off.

Senator KING. If you open the door and statements are made, hearsay in character, I will certainly permit evidence by those-or any person interested in the matter.

Mr. CROAFF. We are desirous of having a complete investigation, but what I mean by that is, we don't desire simply to make certain statements and then drop the matter. If the committee desires to proceed several months in investigating matter, it is agreeable to us, or weeks or days, whatever they think is necessary.

Senator KING. There is so much speculation around election time, so many charges that are absolutely evanescent and without foundation that you can never tell if you let a lot of hearsay evidence come in. He may answer.

Mr. CROAFF. Mr. Van Dyke, have you had occasion to go to California during the past year?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. About how many times approximately?

A. You mean on the committee's business?

Q. On the committee's business.

A. Oh, I should judge probably two or three times I went to California, two or three times, and I went to Washington once.

Q. Did you visit California at any time on your own private business?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What do you know, if anything concerning any reputed plan or program for the sending of money into the State of Arizona to influence the senatorial campaign at this time by any persons or organizations concerned in the Colorado River?

Senator KING. What do you know about any organization sending money into this State to affect the election? I don't want a lot of hearsay; what do you know about it? Tell us fully.

Mr. VAN DYKE. I have no definite personal knowledge concerning the sending of money here. I have beliefs in that matter, but I have not definite personal knowledge. I have seen no money pass, Senator.

Senator KING. What do you know about money being sent or to be sent here to influence or control elections and by whom? Name the persons now. Let us have it.

Mr. VAN DYKE. Nothing except what I have heard. It is all hearsay, Senator, that I have.

Senator KING. You want to state now that you have heard individual names mentioned that they were sending or had sent money into this State to control the election?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I have heard that; yes.

Senator KING. Name the persons who sent money into this State and who it was sent to.

Mr. VAN DYKE. I said-I didn't make that statement. I said I heard money had been sent into the State by persons living in California to influence this election.

Senator KING. For what purpose?

Mr. VAN DYKE. For the purpose of influencing the elections in Arizona.

Senator KING. Do you want to state to this committee that money has been sent into this State?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I want to state that I have heard money has been sent in.

Senator KING. Who told you?

Mr. VAN DYKE. It has been some time ago

Senator KING. Who told you?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I say it has been some time, and I don't recall the same.

Senator KING. That is a rather singular proceeding, that you would be willing to peddle a statement that you don't know who told you. Who said it, and we will have a subpoena issued, and we will subpoena him here and produce it.

Mr. VAN DYKE. I said I would be very glad to do it if I remembered. It is common rumor in this State.

Senator KING. Who told you!
Mr. VAN DYKE. I don't know.

Senator KING. What did he say? First, I want the name. Who told you?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I say that I don't remember, or I would answer that, Senator.

Senator KING. Do you mean to say that upon a matter so vital to the integrity of our institutions that somebody was going to bribe and corrupt a State, and told you that, that you would not remember who told you?

Mr. VAN DYKE. Yes.

Senator KING. Well, I can scarcely credit it.

Mr. VAN DYKE. Well, it is true, nevertheless. This was some time ago.

Senator KING. You would be different from any other man I have ever known, Mr. Van Dyke. I can't understand your moral position upon these questions. You tell this committee every man who has told you that money was to be sent into this State to corrupt the election, or to influence the election.

Mr. VAN DYKE. I don't understand the question.

Senator KING. Tell this committee the name of every person that told you that money was to be sent into this State, or had been sent into this State to corrupt the election.

A. I don't remember that. I have told you that, Senator, several times, that I don't. If I did I would be very glad to state it. I don't recollect it now. It has been some time since this matter was called to my attention.

Senator KING. Then you would be willing to come here and testify under oath where there would be no chance to subpoena a person, to verify or demonstrate the absolute baselessness of that statement? Mr. VAN DYKE. Senator, I am in a position

Senator KING. You would be willing to do that, would you?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I am in a position where I have got to answer questions asked me here, and that is what I am doing to the best of my ability, and to the best of my knowledge.

Senator KING. Is that all you know, you don't know who said that? Mr. VAN DYKE. No.

Senator KING. Do you know where he said it?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I can't think of that at this moment.

Senator KING. You don't know when it was said?

Mr. VAN DYKE. Yes.

Senator KING. When?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I think the statement was made, as I remember it, some time last summer.

Senator KING. Now by whom?

Mr. VAN DYKE. I don't recall.

Senator KING. Well, you think it over.

Mr. VAN DYKE. All right.

Senator KING. I will recall you.

Mr. VAN DYKE. All right, I will be glad to do that, Senator.
Senator KING. Any other questions?

(No response.)

Senator KING. This committee is not a sewer to permit the besmirchment of the character of anybody.

Mr. VAN DYKE. Senator, I didn't introduce this subject. I am in a position where I have to answer questions. I am going it to the best of my ability and I don't believe that I ought to be abused because of it.

Senator KING. Well, the chairman will determine that.. You may retire and think that over, and then come back at 2 o'clock. Next witness.

TESTIMONY OF LEROY KENNEDY

LEROY KENNEDY was called as a witness, and being first duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth as to matters under investigation, testified as follows:

Q. Who is the owner, if you know?

A. The best evidence of that is the sworn post-office statement. Q. Just state that, if you know.

A. I. A. Van Dyke, C. C. Loomis, L. E. Van Dyke.

Examined by Mr. CROAFF:

Q. Mr. Kennedy, have you had any experience in the newspaper business other than your connection with the Miami Silver Belt?! A. I have been in the newspaper business all of my life.

Q. Have you during that experience in the newspaper business been the editor or publisher, or concerned in the editing or publishing, of labor papers, and are you familiar with the cost of production of papers, either labor organizations or journals or other papers? A. I am fairly well posted.

Q. Have you ever had any experience in compiling various statistics concerning labor legislation for publication in various papers? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How much experience, in a general way, have you had? A. Well, a good many years I have been publishing; I edited a labor paper here in Phoenix for two or three years.

Q. You mean the time you were president of the State Federation of Labor?

A. During the time I was president of the State Federation of Labor; yes, sir; I was also chairman of a labor committee of the State Federation of Labor at that time and since.

Q. Calling your attention to Exhibit No. 4-a, a paper called Labor, published at Washington, D. C., Saturday, October 9, 1926; have you ever seen a copy of that same edition before?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Will you please make an examination of that and state approximately what amount of news, or alleged news articles, that is reading matter, and what portion of advertising matter of the entire paper is devoted to the present senatorial contest in Arizona?

A. As I understand advertising, Labor accepts no advertising. They haven't an ad in the paper and refuse them at any price. They get out these special editions directed along their various lines of endeavor at about a cent apiece, $1 a hundred.

Q. Then a paper of this kind costs the publisher about a cent apiece?

A. They will send them in here and deliver them to you by mail for one cent a piece in quantities of five thousand and up.

Q. Can you state from an examination of that, what portion of the paper is devoted to the senatorial contest in Arizona?

A. Oh, I think_probably all of this one, some of it devoted to Governor Hunt; I would say from 25 to 40 per cent of that is devoted to the senatorial race.

Q. Do you know anything about the cost of compiling of the various statistical matters that are published in here, that is the cost of gathering the data and preparing it for publication?

A. It would be hard to estimate that for the simple reason I think all of this stuff was furnished to these papers without cost by the parties interested.

Senator KING. Do you know that?

A. Do I know that?

The question was, do you know the cost of compiling the statistics and the data that goes in that article?

A. No, I haven't means of knowing how much money they spent gathering that data, but that data was furnished the paper Labor by committees and parties who had it compiled, working around Washington.

Q. You mean by the persons for whom-for whose benefit it is? A. Yes, or by some person in their behalf.

Q. Cary Hayden stated that he did not furnish it.

A. Maybe he did not know anything about it, but somebody else

did.

Q. Well, the fact is, you know, do you not, that the Labor Bureau in Washington, as well as other bureaus, assembles data upon various questions, and then when they desire to write an article, they have the data at hand?

A. Oh, yes; sure.

QI do not want to argue the question with you. You mean to state that this data was assembled and prepared by Mr. Hayden or by committees there?

A. No, I don't say it. I say this paper, their personal staff, don't go out and collect this data. It is furnished to them through governmental bureaus and departments and people who are interested in getting that out.

Senator KING. Is that all, Mr. Croaff?