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Mr. Van Dyke. Senator, I didn't introduce this subject. I am in a position where I have to answer questions. I am going it to the best of my ability and I don't believe that I ought to be abused because of it.
Senator King. Well, the chairman will determine that. You may retire and think that over, and then come back at 2 o'clock. Next witness.
TESTIMONY OF LEROY KENNEDY
LEROY KENNEDY was called as a witness, and being first duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth as to matters under investigation, testified as follows:
Examined by Senator King:
the owner ? A. No, sir. Q. Who is the owner, if you know? A. The best evidence of that is the sworn post-office statement. Q. Just state that, if you know. A. I. A. Van Dyke, C. C. Loomis, L. E. Van Dyke.
Examined by Mr. CROAFF: Q. Mr. Kennedy, have you had any experience in the newspaper business other than your connection with the Miami Silver Belt?
A. I have been in the newspaper business all of my life.
Q. Have you during that experience in the newspaper business been the editor or publisher, or concerned in the editing or publishing, of labor papers, and are you familiar with the cost of production of papers, either labor organizations or journals or other papers?
A. I am fairly well posted.
Q. Have you ever had any experience in compiling various statistics concerning labor legislation for publication in various papers?
A. Yes, sir. Q. How much experience, in a general way, have you had? A. Well, a good many years I have been publishing; I edited a labor paper
here in Phoenix for two or three years. Q. You mean the time you were president of the State Federation of Labor ?
A. During the time I was president of the State Federation of Labor; yes, sir; I was also chairman of a labor committee of the State Federation of Labor at that time and since.
Q. Calling your attention to Exhibit No. 4-a, a paper called Labor, published at Washington, D. C., Saturday, October 9, 1926; have you ever seen a copy of that same edition before?
A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you please make an examination of that and state approximately what amount of news, or alleged news articles, that is reading matter, and what portion of advertising matter of the entire paper is devoted to the present senatorial contest in Arizona ?
À. As I understand advertising, Labor accepts no advertising. They haven't an ad in the paper and refuse them at any price. They get out these special editions directed along their various lines of endeavor at about a cent apiece, $1 a hundred.
Q. Then a paper of this kind costs the publisher about a cent apiece?
A. They will send them in here and deliver them to you by mail for one cent a piece in quantities of five thousand and up.
Q. Can you state from an examination of that, what portion of the paper is devoted to the senatorial contest in Arizona ?
A. Oh, I think probably all of this one, some of it devoted to Governor Hunt; I would say from 25 to 40 per cent of that is devoted to the senatorial race.
Q. Do you know anything about the cost of compiling of the various statistical matters that are published in here, that is the cost of gathering the data and preparing it for publication?
A. It would be hard to estimate that for the simple reason I think all of this stuff was furnished to these papers without cost by the parties interested.
Senator KING. Do you know that?
Q. The question was, do you know the cost of compiling the statistics and the data that goes in that article?
A. No, I haven't means of knowing how much money they spent gathering that data, but that data was furnished the paper Labor by committees and parties who had it compiled, working around Washington.
Q. You mean by the persons for whom-for whose benefit it is?
A. Maybe he did not know anything about it, but somebody else did.
Q. Well, the fact is, you know, do you not, that the Labor Bureau in Washington, as well as other bureaus, assembles data upon various questions, and then when they desire to write an article, they have the data at hand?
A. Oh, yes; sure.
Q. I do not want to argue the question with you. You mean to state that this data was assembled and prepared by Mr. Hayden or by committees there?
A. No, I don't say it. I say this paper, their personal staff, don't go out and collect this data. It is furnished to them through goyernmental bureaus and departments and people who are interested in getting that out.
Senator King. Is that all, Mr. Croaff?
Mr. CROAFF. I believe that is all.
Senator King. The cost of printing in Washington differs from the cost here, does it not?
A. Somewhat; yes. The difference is largely in the machinery, in the efficiency of the plant.
Q. There are mechanical elements which determine the cost very largely?
Q. What is the fact as to whether or not editions of Labor are published from time to time for persons whom they regard as very favorable to labor in which they lose a great deal in the publication, but it adds to their circulation in the long run, and contributes to the cause of labor, so any loss sustained in one edition, the issue devoted to one or more candidates, they feel is compensated in the benefits which arise. I am asking you if that is a fact, or what you know in regard to that?
A. I can't understand that Labor ever loses anything in the publieation of one of these editions, because they are paid in advance. For instance, the subscription price is $2 per year for this paper to anyone outside of the railroad brotherhood. The transportation brotherhoods pay for this paper and send it to each member. Each member, a part of his dues each month that goes into his local organization here, goes to the support of this paper.
Q. It is not a money-making paper?
Q. And they urge labor, organized labor, to subscribe for this journal ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is to say, they print them at less than cost. What are the facts; do you know?
A. I could not say that; I don't think they do.
Q. Do you think that the paper could be purchased and the paper set up and circulated, set up and printed and delivered to any person in large or small quantities at 1 cent apiece?
A. Yes, sir; and make money on it.
Q. What would it cost to set up, to assemble the data and set up and print a paper of the size of the Daily Silver Belt of October 23. containing the matter with reference to Senator Cameron and to Governor Hunt. Just look at the paper. It is an exhibit.
A. I think that issue is one we printed 15,000 copies of.
Q. Assume that you didn't have it set up at all and assembled the data and prepared it.
A. Well, I figure that
Q. Wait. And then set it up and print it and deliver the printed copies to any person, what would it cost?
A. Fifteen thousand copies, we charged Mr. Van Dyke 3 cents
a copy for it.
Q. No; I am asking you what it cost.
Q. Listen to my question, please. A. Twelve dollars a page, then, about. Q. What would it cost to set it up, buy your paper, and then print it and turn it off in the form in which it is now, ready for delivery, for 15,000 copies? Do you understand my question?
A. Yes; I think I do.
Q. If you don't, just indicate it, and we will try and have a meeting of the minds.
A. If we began at the bottom, necessarily that entire paper, the first 1,000 copies, would cost us $188. After that it would cost us $16.50 a thousand—the actual cost-$16.50 after you get the first thousand off at a cost of $188.50.
Senator King. That would be how much?
A. The first thousand, if we had to set this all up, would be about $12 a day-it averages that-to make it up and get it ready for the press.
Q. Does that include the cost of the paper! A. Yes; the first thousand; that includes the cost of the paper. Q. Does that include the cost of the overhead? A. Yes. Q. And charging to this particular work its proportionate share of the expenses of conducting your plant, and overhead, and operating expenses, and so on? A. Yes, sir. Q. You understand that? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In computing the cost of an article it isn't the immediate cost you have taken into account—the capital invested and so on?
A. We have a system of bookkeeping that takes care of the overhead.
Q. That is what I want to know, if you have taken that into consideration ?
A. And the depreciation and interest.
A. Xo; $12 a page--$96 for composition--and then we commence to grind on the machinery, about $7.30 a thousand, cost of paper, and $5 an hour running the press, getting off about 2,200 an hour, and $1.50 an hour for running the folder.
Q. What would you charge the public?
A. We charge the public--212 cents apiece to the public--sell them to agents and boys for 21/2 cents. We charged Mr. Van Dyke 3 cents apiece. There is no advertising in that issue, practically.
Q. No what?
A. We don't take advertising in the form of reading matter. If this is the editorial expression of the editor, we don't call it advertising
Q. Do you call that the editorial expression of the editor?
Q. Here is a telegram—this was evidently for political purposes. to aid Governor Hunt and Mr. Cameron in the election?
Q. If I bring you a matter that is of a character to aid me in an election, would you call it advertising or news?
A. Yes; but there wasn't anybody brought us that stuff.
A. It depends on whether it was news or not, whether it was news, whether it was political or industrial, it would be news. If it was mere advertising and not news, we would want to sell the space.
Q. At any rate, then, you don't call this advertising?
Q. Although it is for the purpose of aiding and issued solely for the purpose of aiding one to secure election?
A I take it that the editorial of the average paper that has been printed in the United States, the editorial column, is somewhat along the same line.
Q. Do you call the whole eight pages the editorial column of that paper?
A. It is an editorial edition.
Q. Answer the question, Do you call these eight pages, the whole paper, the editorial column?
À. There is about six pages of editorial in there; yes, sir.
Q. You and I differ a little as to what an editorial is. Reverend Dirk Lay challenges Hayden to debate," and so on; is that editorial ?
A. That is included in those two pages I excepted. It isn't an editorial opinion.
Q. The value of seniority”; is that editorial ?
Q. You call that editorial. That page showing Mr. Cameron's and Mr. Hunt's photographs and the advertisement below, at the bottom; do you call that editorial?
A. No; that was contributed.
Q. Do you call this editorial, a letter from Governor Hunt, on the upper hand of the page?
A. Yes; if you will read it at the top you will see "Reprint of Silver Belt"; an editorial four years ago.
Q. Do you call it an editorial, I want to know?
Q. Would you call it an editorial, this article in regard to Mr. Irwin?
A. Yes; that was an editorial written right there in the officeeditorial expressions and the definite opinion.