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want to sacrifice a good man like Magill? You know that he has no chance." He said, “ You don't know the power or the strength of the forces that are behind him.” Then we both protested and argued.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, you and Mr. McBride?

Mr. SAFFORD. And Mr. McBride; and told him that if he brought a new candidate into the field at this time, and he had any success at all, it would only result in the election of Mr. Brennan, whom we are opposing because he is wet. Mr. O'Brien then, in order to show the strength of his backing, repeated the names of Mr. Rosenwald. Mr. Stearns, Mr. Ickes, and others. I said, “What authority have you to speak for them?”

The CHAIRMAX. You say “and others.” Let us get the others.
Mr. SAFFORD. I do not remember them, Colonel-or Senator, I

mean.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they capitalists? If you are going to give me a military title, I want to be promoted. I want to be at least a general.

Mr. SAFFORD. I am trying to observe all of the dignities. The other things he said were so much more interesting to me that I do not remember.

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying just for the moment to see whether, if you can not remember the names, it was a group of capitalists hé named.

Mr. SAFFORD. Well, yes; it left the impression in our minds that it was.

But at any rate, then, the conversation turned to what would happen

The CHAIRMAX. You have not answered my question-if you can answer it, Doctor-whether the others in addition to Rosenwald, Stearns and Ickes, were a group of men of means.

Mr. SAFFORD. Yes, sir; he left that impression.

The CHAIRMAN. You started to say what he had said and you had said.

Mr. SAFFORD. Then we said to Mr. O'Brien, "Why, Mr. O'Brien, you could not possibly make a successful or even any kind of a campaign at this late hour without the expenditure of a very large amount of money.” He said, “We will spend from three to four hundred thousand dollars." I said to him, "You could not raise any such sum as that.” He brought his fist down on the table and he said, “We have got the money and we intend to spend it." I said to him, “ You are not a bit better than the fellows you are criticizing. If you do a thing like that you are in the same class as Mr. Brennan

a and the supporters and backers of Colonel Smith in regard to the expenditure of money."

Mr. McBride said to him, “Don't you know that if you spend a sum like that you will violate the law? The law limits the amount that can be spent in a senatorial election to $50,000. There is no limit to the amount that can be spent in a primary, but in a senatorial or general election it is limited to $50,000." He said, “ We know that; but we think there are some holes through which we can get." I said to him, "Mr. O'Brien, you are utterly unworthy to support a man like Magill or have anything to do with such a proposition. You are deliberately proposing to violate the law.” “Well,"

he said, "we are going to do it. We are going to put on a big campaign."

We said to him: “Mr. O'Brien, you know your man can not be elected." He said: “We think he can. McBride pointed his finger at him and he said: “ O'Brien, you know you can not elect your man.” He said: “That may be; but we will at least succeed in electing Mr. Brennan." I said to him: “ That is where you and we part company. We are as far apart as the poles. You are willing to at least succeed in electing Brennan. We are determined to do all we can to prevent the election of Brennan. That is where we stand. You and we can have nothing to do with each other."

Senator, when this man began to say these things I pulled over my tab and wrote these three or four particular statements right at

that moment. I have them now. I put them in my memorandum | book, and I have them now.

The CHAIRMAX. Have you it at present! Mr. SAFFORD. I haven't it with me, but I can produce it. The CHAIRMAN. I would be glad to see it, being of a curious mind.

Mr. SAFFORD. All right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that you said to him that if he expended this large amount of money he would be as bad as Smith or Brennan, who were expending large sums of money?

Mr. SAFFORD. Open to the same criticism.

The CHAIRMAX. Yes. Do you know of any large sums of money that Brennan is spending?

Mr. SAFFORD. He did not need to spend so much. The CHAIRMAN. No; but I am not asking that. I am asking if you know of any large sums of money that Brennan is spending?

Mr. SAFFORD. The amount that was reported by your committee. That is what I referred to.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not regard that as astonishingly large, did you?

Mr. SAFFORD. Not so particularly large.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not as much as the Anti-Saloon League is spending, is it?

Mr. SAFFORD. We are not spending that much in this campaign. The CHAIRMAN. How much did Brennan spend or account for? Mr. SAFFORD. I suppose about twenty thousand or so.

The CHAIRMAN. You are spending a good deal more than that, are you not?

Mr. SAFFORD. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAX. How is that?
Mr. SAFFORD. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is paying out the money for the AntiSaloon League?

Mr. SAFFORD. I am.
The CHAIRMAN. You are?
Mr. SAFFORD. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. We will come back to that after a while.
Mr. SAFFORD. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. When you said to this man that if he was going to spend three or four hundred thousand dollars he would be as

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bad as Brennan or Smith, did you have an idea that there was something bad about the expenditure of large sums of money?

Mr. SAFFORD. I think that is an evil that must be handled and will have to be corrected.

The CHAIRMAN. You regard it as morally wrong?
Mr. SAFFORD. Well-

The CHAIRMAN. So you said to this man, “ You are as bad as these other rascals," in substance and effect!

Mr SAFFORD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN, If it is morally wrong, why are you supporting the man who expended this very large sum of money, to wit, Mr. Smith ?

Mr. SAFFORD. Because, Senator, the Anti-Saloon League believes that with the powerful political organizations in existence it is idle for us to introduce an independent. We have to choose between the two party candidates. One of them is thoroughly dry, and the other is conspicuously and notoriously wet, making his campaign upon that basis.

The CHAIRMAN. And you will swallow the dry even though he has raised a fund of money which is so large that when it is proposed to raise a similar fund, you condemn the man who makes the proposition, and refuse to have anything to do with him, because that is too corrupt for you to touch?

Mr. SAFFORD. The situation is this, Senator-
The CHAIRMAN. That is the fact, is it not?

Mr. SAFFORD. We are in a great fight on the wet and dry question. That is the issue here. I have nothing to say in condonement of the campaign funds or where they came from, but the point we make, and I think it is absolutely correct and right, is that when we have one great big fight on our hands, it is idle to turn and try to solve another problem and fight another battle. Our position is that we

. are going to fight this one through.

The CHAIRMAN. So that you would support a man who had raised a corruption fund so great as to shock your conscience, provided that man agreed with you on the prohibition question?

Mr. SAFFORD. No, Senator, that is not a fair statement. We did not create this situation. The people have created it. We reach into this situation and take the best we can out of it.

The CHAIRMAN. What people created it?
Mr. SAFFORD. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. You say the people created it. Do you charge the people of Illinois with creating it?

Mr. SAFFORD. The people of Illinois elected these two men in the primaries. That is what I mean.

The CHAIRMAN. But to come back to my question regarding the people creating it, your philosophy is that if a man is right on the prohibition question and his opponent is wrong on the prohibition question, you will support the man who is right on the prohibition question, even though he is trying to ride into office by the expenditure of a corruption fund. You would add the power and force of your moral institution to the corruption campaign? Is that your position?

Mr. SAFFORD. Of course, we do not consider that Brennan has any. thing on him in the way of corruption.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, well, let us see about that.
Ur. SAFFORD. We have no choice.
The CHAIRMAN. You have only spoken of $20,000 for Brennan.
Mr. SAFFORD. Well, he is-

The CHAIRMAN. The Smith campaign fund shows some $125,000 received directly from proprietors of public-service institutions, does it not?

Mr. SAFFORD. As far as that is concerned, there is this to be said. It is an evil that has existed a good while. It is nothing new. Publicservice corporations and other institutions have been doing that. It is an evil which ought to have been dealt with before. But the greatest corruptionists that this country every knew were the liquor crowd, the crowd that are back of Brennan and putting him forward.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes?
Mr. SAFFORD. So we see no relief-

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of a single corrupt dollar that Mr. Brennan has received, unless it was the $15,000 he got from Insull!

Mr. SAFFORD. Well, that is three-fourths of his campaign fund. The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. SAFFORD. But our position is perfectly clear and straightforward on that.

The CHAIRMAX. I think so. That is, your position is this, Doctor, and I think we might agree on it, that you do not care what a man is

Mr. SAFFORD. No, no.
The CHAIRMAN. Or what his morals are-
Mr. SAFFORD. You could not be more unfair, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. Let me state it, now.
Mr. SAFFORD. Well, state it right.

The CHAIRMAN. That regardless of a man's morals, regardless of the corrupt influences he has back of him, if he is right on the prohibition question you will support him and aid in the consummation of a corrupt scheme, just if a man is right on the prohibition question; and you will do that against a man who might be right on every other question, but, in your opinion, is wrong on that one?

Mr. SAFFORD. No, Senator. You could not state it more unfairly than that. You have stated a general proposition, and we are talking now about one particular instance in which the majority of the things which you have laid down do not apply.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that Brennan represents a corrupt crowd. Will you name them?

Mr. SAFFORD. No; I can not name them. I do not think it is necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you name any of them?
Mr. SAFFORD. No. The liquor crowd.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean, by that, the man who does not believe in prohibition?

Mr. SAFFORD. No. I mean the organized liquor interests that are putting forth Mr. Brennan.

The CHAIRMAN. What are the organized liquor interests! I am interested in knowing, because if they are putting forward candidates and raising money, that is just what this committee wants to find out.

Mr. SAFFORD. I can not give you the names.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give us any of them?
Mr. SAFFORD. I possibly could find them out, but I can not now.

The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would. It would accommodate us greatly if you could tell us some liquor interests that are putting up, money, because we are looking for just these chaps. We are going to be in session a day or two more, and if you can give us the names of these contributors we would be obliged to you.

Mr. SAFFORD. I suppose I could not do that, because we do not have access to things of that sort.

The CHAIRMAN. If you can not do it, very well. But we know our enemies, doctor.

Mr. SAFFORD. We do not need to argue about that, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. If you can not do it or can not tell the names of the men or a name of a man, why do you, under oath, make the broad statement that the thing exists?

Mr. SAFFORD. Because, Senator, we have been in this fight for 30 years and know this crowd and know what they stand for.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is obvious. Sow, Mr. O'Brien came to you. Is he a minister?

Mr. SAFFORD. He stated that he was.

The Chairman. Is he pastor of the West Pullman Methodist Episcopal Church?

Mr. SAFFORD. He stated that he was. I believe he has been transferred to another church by the last conference.

The CHAIRMAN. That is no reflection on the Methodist Church, because they transfer their ministers regularly.

Mr. SAFFORD. Oh, no; that has nothing to do with this.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what church he has been transferred to?

Mr. SAFFORD. I think he has been transferred to the Blue Island Methodist Church.

The CHAIRMAN. In Chicago?
Mr. SAFFORD. Yes; somewhere around.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you gave a statement of this interview or these interviews that you had with Mr. O'Brien, the Reverend O'Brien, to the newspapers?

Mr. SAFFORD. I went to Mr. Magill with them and had a private conversation, and told him all about it.

The CHAIRMAN. What did Mr. Magill say?

Mr. SAFFORD. He said he did not want to hear it, and he became very indignant.

The CHAIRMAN. Have there been some negotiations between Mr. Magill and the representatives of the Anti-Saloon League with reference to supporting him?

Mr. SAFFORD. No, sir-well, yes; of course, that is what Mr. O'Brien came to me for.

The CHAIRMAN. No. I mean, aside from Mr. O'Brien.

Mr. SAFFORD. No-well, I beg your pardon. Some ministers have been to see us and tried to get us to go into the Magill campaign.

The CHAIRMAN. In behalf of Mr. Magill ?
Mr. SAFFORD. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. But you saw Mr. Magill yourself?
Mr. SAFFORD. I saw him before I did anything else.

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