Speech of Lord Camden. 458 Sept. that with all other laws paffed fince the reign of Edward the Third respecting treafons, was repealed; and I know of none thenceforward paffed, for the purpose. In this very ftrange claufe, an expreffion has crept, and which but for the iniquitous and cruel complexion of the whole bill, I fhould have believed got there purely by the mistake or blunder of the clerk, as it is rank nonfenfe. The paffage I allude to is, the condition on which the general amnefty or particular pardons are to take place: "As foon (fays the claufe) as the province, district, &c. fhall be in the king's peace." The phrafe is long fince antiquated and out of use; at all events as applied here, it is equally "The king's unmeaning and abfurd. peace," if it imports any thing, muft have a reference to the antient cuftom, when the feudatories made war on each other, in avenging perfonal wrongs, or by way of reprifal or retaliation; and when the king, in order to put an end to the contention, declared one or both of the parties to be in the king's peace, that was under his immediate protection. But on reconfideration, the introduction of this abfolute term is not without its intended use. It is of a piece with the whole conduct of this bufinefs, from the very outfet; which has been directed to enlarge the powers of the crown, under the infidious pre-text of afferting the rights of parliament. Parliament is at all events to be difgraced; when minifters have experienced the impracticability of their fchemes of tyranny and defpotism, all they think they will have to do, will be to declare the province in the king's peace. Hoftilities will inftantly cease, But, my Lords, great ftrefs is laid upon the Americans feizing the caftles, forts, ammunition, &c. of his majefty; and it is afked with no fmall degree of wonder and astonishment, is not this rebellion? If it can be inter-d as a noble duke (Richmond) obpreted rebellion at all, the cafe can only apply to Canada. Yet even in the cafe of Canada, if we examine the law of this country, which can be the only fure guide, I queftion whether we have any one exifting law, which will bring it within the defcription of high trealon. Previous to the reign of Edward the 6th, the offence was not punishable as treafon; during the reign of that prince, a law was enacted which made the poffeffing or retaining the king's caftles, fortrefles, &c. against his confent, high treafon. In the fucceeding reign, that of Queen Mary, ferved early in the debate, parliament will incur both bere, and in America, all the odium of this unnatural attempt on the liberties and property of our fellow fubjects in America; and the king's fervants will have the credit of conceding and defifting from an enterprize, of which they were the original authors, but which experience had taught them, was as impracticable in the execution, as they were long before confcious, it was contrary to every principle of equity, expediency, and found policy." Lord 1776. Lord Mansfield's Speech. Lord Mansfield in answer to Lord Camden. If the noble and learned lord who spoke laft, had not fo fully explained what the noble duke who made the motion, and the other noble duke who spoke later in the debate (Duke of Richmond) meant by appealing to me, I could have never conceived that I fhould have been called on this day to defend a bill (the Capture Act) which I do affure your lordships, I never faw, nor was confulted upon, till I caft my eyes over it on the fecond reading, while it lay on this table. I remember I came very late into the house that evening; and did not mean to fay a fyllable to the question, if I had not been particularly called upon to deliver my fentiments, as I have been this night. There were, if I recollect right, but two doubts started relative to the obvious meaning of the bill. One of them was fuggefted by a noble duke I have now in my eye (Duke of Richmond) who wished to know, if the fhips, their tackle and apparel, lying in the ports, harbours, and docks of America, not exprefsly offending against the principle of the act, by carrying on, or intending to carry on, any trade, &c. came within the intention of the general claufe, which creates the forfeiture under the defcription of all thips, goods, and merchandizes: I informed his grace, and your lordships, that I thought it did; because any exception might become a fource of endless confufion; for if a line were attempted to be drawn in favour of a particular defcription of men thus circumstanced; or if the mode of incurring the forfeitures created by the act, were diverfified or diftinguished, I faw plainly, and am ftill of the fame opinion, that it would probably defeat the professed intentions of the bill. The other ob. jection raised, was by the noble lord over the way (Lord Shelburne). His lord hip denied the power of pardon ing in the lump, to be vefted in the crown; and argued from thence, that the power of pardoning delegated by the bill, was a wanton and improper extenfion of the royal prerogative. For my part, my fentiments continue to be the fame; I think now, as I thought then, that the power of pardoning in the lump was a power inhe 459 rent in the crown from the earliest date of this conftitution. I knew fuch a power had been uniformly exercised by the fucceffive monarchs of this realm, from the Conquest to this day. I knew likewife, as they have exercifed it themselves, fo they have frequently delegated it to others. And on this head I have only to add, that his majesty's minifters were fo well fatisfied of the conftitutional legality of the power itself, and the competency of the crown to delegate it, that a noble lord near me (Lord Dartmouth) afterwards in the committee, moved an amendment, on purpose to reserve the rights of the crown pure and undiminished. I am therefore clearly fatisfied, that his majefty might have granted pardons, as well to individuals, as in the lump to districts, communities, and whole provinces. The noble and learned lord has raised ar guments and drawn conclufions from the nature of the commiffion, authorized by the claufe; and the objects to which it may or can be legally directed. That in my opinion, my lords, will greatly depend upon circumftances, and the prudence and abilities of thofe to whom the execution of the commiffion is intrufted. It can hardly be fuppofed, that they will incur the difpleafure of parliament, for acting up to their infructions; and it is still lefs probable, that they will rifque the cenfure of both parlia ment and their fovereign, by any improper exercite or abuse of their power.-The noble and learned lord is at a mighty lofs to know the precife meaning of the phrafe, "well dispofed," as applied to a change of fentiments in fuch of the colonies as are now in rebellion; and the legal technical definition of that phrafe of being "in the king's peace." For my part I can easily comprehend the meaning of both thefe expreffions; the first plainly importing a difpofition in any town, district, or province, to return to their allegiance, and recognize the fupreme legislative authority of this country; and the other, a proclamation on fuch recognition or acknowledgment, on the part of the perfons authorised by the act, to declare fuch colony or province to be "in the king's peace," that is, to be under the protection of the laws, and be reitored 3 N 2 to 460 Speech of Lord Mansfield. to all the privileges of dutiful and loyal fubjects. My lords, fomething very unufual, a leaft to the extent, it has been carried tis night, has happened on the prefent occafion. I could not help obferving in the courfe of the debate, that almost every matter connected with the affairs of America, has been amply difcuffed, but the very propofition your lordships were convened to consider and decide on. The port duties laid on certain commodities, imported into that country by parliament in 1767, and the partial repeal of them in 1770, have been much dwelt on.-There is not a fyllable relative to either in the motion. A noble, duke, who fpoke early in the debate, (duke of Manchester) has gone very fully and largely into the state of the navy.-There is not the leaft mention made of the navy in the propofition now fubmitted to your fordfhips. Another noble duke (duke of Richmond) has entertained us a confiderable time, on the fubject of convicts and vagrants.-The motion is quite filent on that head. A fourth (lord Shelburne) endeavoured to prove, that the work imputed to Montcalm, relative to the intended independency of the colonies, whenever they found themselves fufficiently ftrong to contend with this country, was a forgery; and the fame noble lord found fault with the military arrangement in Ireland. I will not dispute about the forgery, nor defend the propriety of thofe arrangements; but I will fay, that they are both totally unconnected with the motion. Finally, the noble and learned lord, who spoke laft, (lord Camden) has harangued very fully on the affairs of the Eaft India company, and the improper interference of government. I cannot find a fingle line relative to that company, or the improper extenfion of the povers of the crown, in the motion under confideration. I had no intention when I came into the house, to take any part in this dehate; but having been called upon though not directly, now I am up, I fhall trouble your lordships with a few words; meaning however to confine myfelf merely to the terms and purport of the motion. Before I proceed, I must declare, that I deliver my fentiments with great caution, becaufe whatever is faid here, immediately Sept. gets abroad, and from thence is wafted This country, my lords, is now arrived at a very tremendous crifis. We are just commencing a war, of a nature entirely new; a war that must neceffarily be very expenfive, and the iffue of which, no man can foretell. It is true, that the kingdom will in a great meafure be left defenceless; that we can have no certainly that France, or Spain, will long preferve their prefent pacific difpofitions; that we have been compelled to the neceflity of hiring foreign troops, and of fending to the ports of other kingdoms for tranfports. But how 1776. Lord Camden in Reply to Lord Mansfield. how, my lords, were these circumftances to be avoided? America has rebelled. America is now in arms; not defenfively, but offenfively; even if we were willing to cease hoftilities, they are not. We must therefore act with vigour, and we must at least shew ourfelves determined to furmount their oppofition. Happy would it be for us, my lords, if any means could be devifed, which would end the quarrel without bloodshed; but does the present motion promise any fuch thing? Without propofing to fave a fhilling of the enormous expence the nation has been at, in providing and equipping the armaments to be fent out this year to America, it agrees, that the troops fhould proceed; bnt when they shall arrive at their respective destinations, they are to remain with their arms folded a-crofs, inactive and unemployed. What then?-Commiffioners are to treat with the congrefs; they are to prepare a petition of grievances, which the commiffioners are to bring to England. The Congrefs will laugh in their fleeves at our folly; they will reprint their declaration of war, under a new title; for that fates what they term their grievances. We fhall lofe a campaign, of which they will take care to avail them felves; and the next fpring, we shall have the whole to begin again. This, my lords, would, I conceive, be the effect of the prefent motion, were it to receive your lordfhips fanction; for which reafon, I fhall give it a negative, looking upon it, as both ill timed, nugatory, and ineffective. Lord Camden in reply. I fhall not trouble your lordships at this late hour of the night, in making obfervations on the many curious matters, which have now fallen from my learned and noble antagonist. I cannot however forbear making one remark which I think directly applies to his lordship perfonally; and at the fame time points out the very defect which he has cenfured fo liberally in others. I will not pretend to decide with what degree of juftice, that is, faying very little to the queftion, and a great deal on other fubjects, not at all connected with the prefent motion, according to his lord hip's ideas of the Arict rules of parliamentary debate. The noble and learned lord furely mifunderstood me, 46 if he imagined that I queftioned the king's power to pardon. No, my lords, what I contended was, what I now pledge myself to your lordships I shall be able to prove, that the king cannot pardon in the lump, offences against the fate, without the aid of parliament; much lefs can he pardon, or agree to any terms short of the claims and conditions which parliament have defined, and prescribed as the true bafis of conciliation. The noble and learned lord, by the pains he has taken to justify the celebrated claufe, which has been the fubject of fo much converfation this night, feems rather to be the father of it, than the cafual defender. His lordship fays, the commiffioners will take care not to tranfgrefs the limits of their commiffion. Will his lordship, or any other noble lord in this house, rife and tell me, that the latter extends an inch farther, than the mere power of granting pardons on terms of fubmiffion? that is, on the people of America laying down their arms, and throwing themfelves unconditionally at our feet. This being the true point, on which the whole queftion turns, it brings me round to the first object I had in contemplation, which is fimply, that the present motion is the only poffible measure, that can now be fafely adopted, in order to prevent the further effufion of blood, and for putting an end to a war, which must inevitably in the end prove the destruction of either, if not both countries. It will fupply the defeat of the bill, I have been now commenting on; it will be the means of drawing forth fpecifications of their claims, from the refpective parties, and will confequently lay a foundation for treaty, which can be the only fafe road to peace and conciliation; whereas, the clause in the capture act, which pretends to attain the fame object, is at once nugatory, infidious and illufive. It leaves the matter just as it found it, even according to the noble and learned lord's own ideas; for if the King could delegate the power of pardoning, and of receiving fubmiffions in the manner his lordship contends, the clue in the act of parliament fays no more; but as to any power of conceding or conciliating contained in the clau e, thort of unconditional fubmiffion on the 462 Speech of the Duke of Grafton. the part of the colonists, I dare fay, the noble and learned lord is by this time perfectly fatisfied, that it never meant any fuch thing, nor will now bear or admit of any fuch interpre tation. Duke of Grafton, in juftification of his motion, and in reply to Lord Mansfield. My lords, I have long obferved that Some perfons from being converfant in the modes of controverfy, adopted in the courts below, where matters are too frequently reprefented in every light, but the true one, have acquired a knack of holding up the weak parts of a debate in a ludicrous light; for finding themselves preffed in argument, they are obliged to refort to ridicule, in order to draw the attention of the Houfe, to matters of no confequence, or rendered fo by the art and chicane of the Speaker. Thus the noble and learned lord, who spoke laft but one, has claimed a kind of victory, by commenting on every thing which fell in argument from this fide of the Houfe, that was not strictly confined to the terms of the motion now on your lordfhips table; and in the very spirit of the conduct he has cenfured and repre. hended in others, has fat down without faying any thing scarcely to the propofition under confideration. I differ very widely from the learned and noble lord; for I fhall be of opinion, that every matter connected with the prefent caufe of difpute with America, the different measures which that difpute fucceffively gave birth to, and the conduct of that war, by which adminiftration and their friends intend, and wish to terminate it, are all fubjects worthy the confideration and most diligent attention of parliament. It is evident to demonftration, that thofe feveral objects are not feparate or diftinct, but form one great whole, which cannot be properly viewed, nor maturely confidered or judged of unless the parts of which it is compofed, be feparately and jointly examined. I confefs, my lords, that I find myself much hurt, when I perceive a question of fuch immenfe importance, treated in fo ludicrous and trivial a manner. I therefore truft, that your lordships will impute any warmth I may have betrayed on the prefent occafion, purely to the caufe I have now mentioned. I hope, I have too great a respect for your lordips, to offer any Septi motion to your confideration, which I thought did not merit the attention of parliament; and I confefs, that I cannot avoid being much furprized, that an attempt to have it laughed away thould be made, when I am confcious, that I took every poffible precaution in my power, to frame it in fuch a manner, as to leave the fubject open; and not by narrowing it, preclude any part of the House from uniting in iome general principle, which might on the outfet be the means of putting a ftop to the further effufion of human blood. My lords, nothing which has happened on the prefent occafion, can induce me to defift from profecuting, what I have fo fincerely at heart, the restoration of peace to my afflicted country. I am willing to give up any part of the motion, which may feem objectionable, to those who only have it in their power to give it effectual fupport. I am ready to alter, omit or amend, fo that the principle of conciliation, which was my motive for troubling your lordships, be preserved. I am defirous, my lords, in conformity to what I propofed at the opening of my motion, that it be fent to a committee to confider of it, and to report their opinion thereon to the Houfe, by whole judgment I shall most chearfully abide. I once more 'conjure your lordships to reflect, that the honour of parliament, the prosperity and the dearest and most intimate interefts of both countries, and the lives of thousands of British subjects, are at ftake; that the prefent is perhaps the only moment you will ever have to fnatch them from the ruin which muft otherwife inevitably await them, and that the confequences of neglecting this opportunity, will be the fource of endless mourning, and lamentation to ages yet, unborn." The question was put on his Grace's motion, about a quarter after eleven o'clock, when there appeared contents below the bar 31, non contents, 91. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The committee on the Scotch militia bill being refumed, from the adjournment of the preceding day, feve ral claufes were offered with an intention of correcting the real or pretended defects in the English militia bill, reSpecting |