Mr. INSULL. Yes; I drew one of my checks for $190,000 in connection with the matter. Then I had quite a lot of currency on hand of my own.

The CHAIRMAN. What bank did you draw that $190,000 check on? Mr. INSULL. I do not remember.

The CHAIRMAN. What banks do you keep your personal funds in, in Chicago?

Mr. INSULL. I am very sorry, sir-I know I keep one at the Illinois Trust & Savings Bank, but I do not keep track of those things very much. I have two or three bank accounts. I think I have one at the Central Trust Co. and another at the Illinois Merchants Trust. I think I have one at the People's Trust & Savings Bank. Then, I have one at the Northern Trust Co. Then, I have some little accounts up in the country, near my country house.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not draw this $190,000 out of a little account?

Mr. INSULL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Which one of the banks did you draw the $190,000 out of?

Mr. INSULL. I do not know, sir, but I will be very glad to post you when I get home.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you send us that check, with my pledge to return it to you?

Mr. INSULL. I do not know, sir. I am sitting here, being asked a lot of questions, when I am used to consulting counsel, and I want to be just as candid as I can.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to consult your counsel about that?

Mr. INSULL. I do not think I would, until I got home.

The CHAIRMAN. I say, would you like to have a chance to consult your counsel about the $190,000 check? Would you like to have that opportunity?

Mr. INSULL. Oh, I undoubtedly shall consult him about it.

The CHAIRMAN. I say, you would like to have that opportunity, would you?

Mr. İNSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. There is nothing tricky about that question. I simply want to know whether you want to consult your counsel before answering the question.

Mr. INSULL. Oh, naturally.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not be so afraid of me. I am the fairest man in the world.

Mr. INSULL. You often deal with a fair man, but you recognize that he has much more of an intellect than you have yourself, you know.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a very great compliment, Mr. Insull; but I am asking the question in all seriousness. If you want to consult your counsel about that we will give you the opportunity to do so. Mr. INSULL. I would have to be at home to consult him. The CHAIRMAN. You have him right here in the room.

Mr. INSULL. Yes; I know I have him in the room, but I would have to have the check before me. [Laughter.]

Senator LA FOLLETTE. It is not the counsel you want to consult, it is the check, is it not, Mr. Insull?

Mr. INSULL. No; it is both.

Senator GoFF. Is the check still in existence?

Mr. INSULL. I presume it is. My checks are never destroyed. Senator GoFF. Do you recall the name of the payee of that check just now.

Mr. INSULL. I do not even happen to know how it was made out. Senator GoFF. Was it all in one amount?

Mr. INSULL. All in one check; $190,000.

Senator GoFF. When you drew that check you must have intended to make this contribution; is that correct, Mr. Insull?

Mr. INSULL. No; that check was drawn after the contributions were made.

Senator GOFF. After the contributions were made?

Mr. INSULL. Yes; and after the payments had been made.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the use of drawing a check after the money has already been paid?

Mr. INSULL. I said in some cases I sold securities, and in other cases I borrowed money, and I had to pay my debts. It is the only check involved in this question.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think you borrowed $190,000 to pay these gentlemen off?

Mr. INSULL. No; I had some other things at the same time. Senator GoFF. Do you have elections in Cook County every two years! [Laughter.]

Mr. INSULL. Yes-no.

Senator GOFF. Biennial elections?

Mr. INSULL. I really do not know, Senator. We seem to have a good many of them. [Laughter.]

Senator GoFF. Do you make contributions of this size whenever an election comes around?

Mr. INSULL. Oh, no, no, no. The reason I made contributions of this size I am talking now of the Senate side of the thing—was because I was very much interested in the senatorial campaign.

Senator GOFF. Then would you make a contribution of approximately $216,000, less $125,000, at each and every biennial election? Mr. INSULL. No; not necessarily; no.

Senator GoFF. Approximately that much?

Mr. INSULL. No. I do not know. I do not know what the circumstances might be.

Senator GoFF. Are there other interested citizens in Cook County in the city of Chicago that make relatively the same contributions to election expenses that you do?

Mr. INSULL. Judging from what elections cost, there must be. Senator GoFF. Well, to your knowledge?

Mr. INSULL. I am busy with my own affairs, and I do not bother much about anyone else.

Senator GoFF. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Insull, I do not want to keep you here for the purpose of trying to annoy you with questions, but I do not understand this $190,000 check transaction, yet. I asked you if you drew this money from a bank, that you paid the $216,000 out of. You said that you had drawn part of it from a bank; that you drew $190,000 in one check. Then I asked you what bank you drew that

check on, and then there were intervening questions, and they have confused the matter.

Mr. INSULL. I do not know the bank.

The CHAIRMAN. But you did say that you drew the $190,000 for the purpose of making this contribution. Later, you said that you might have drawn the check to reimburse yourself for moneys that you had gotten by selling stock, or might have borrowed. What is your recollection about this transaction?

Mr. INSULL. My recollection is that it was given to reimburse funds that had been advanced to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Who advanced the funds to you?

Mr. INSULL. That I will have to look up when I get home.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know who advanced those funds?
Mr. INSULL. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee would be interested in knowing where you got the money in the first instance, to pay the $216,000, or the various sums that in the aggregate made up the $216,000-or the $237,000 as Senator La Follette indicated in his question, and you afterwards affirmed in your answer. The committee would like to know where the moneys came from in the first instance, whom they were borowed from if borrowed, or if they were obtained through the sale of securities, what the securities were and to whom they were sold.

Mr. INSULL. I buy and sell securities every day, so that that is——— The CHAIRMAN. Then we want the check, and we want to know why you would draw a check to reimburse yourself.

Mr. INSULL. Not to reimburse myself.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing). For contributions that you had already contributed.

Mr. INSULL. Not to reimburse myself, but to repay money borrowed by myself.

The CHAIRMAN. By yourself?

Mr. INSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you can have it either way; those are the facts we wanted. Now, you can not give us those facts until you have consulted counsel and have examined your records?

Mr. INSULL. If I have any record. I know I have the check. I must have the check.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Are you in the habit of paying your debts in cash?

Mr. INSULL. I am in the habit of making political contributions in cash.

Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I understand that; but as I understood you, you stated that you drew this check in order to get money with which to

Mr. INSULL. I had undoubtedly gotten the cash before that, and then I paid the money to close out my indebtedness.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. You mean that you borrowed the money in currency in the first place?

Mr. INSULL. Yes; and then repaid it.

The CHAIRMAN. Whom did you borrow it from?

Mr. INSULL. I really do not know, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You said a while ago that you might have gotten a little, only a few thousand dollars, from the till of the company.

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Mr. INSULL. No, no; I said there might be only a few thousand dollars of this total amount

The CHAIRMAN. That you got from the company?

Mr. INSULL. That one or the other of my companies might have not been reimbursed for.

The CHAIRMAN. Then did you draw the whole $190,000 out of the till of the company.

Mr. INSULL. That I do not know. I would have to look that up. Senator LA FOLLETTE. Approximately when was the check drawn? Mr. INSULL. I do not know. I would have to look that up.

Senator LA FOLLETTE. Have you no idea when it was drawn? Mr. INSULL. No; I have not.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not know whether it was drawn before or after the $40,000 was paid, or before or after the $125,000 was paid to Smith?

Mr. INSULL. No; that I will have to look up.

The CHAIRMAN. Your records would show, would they?

Mr. INSULL. Oh, the check will show.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Mr. Insull, are you willing to examine your records and bring in your checks and whatever records there are of this transaction?

Mr. INSULL. Yes. I would like to consult counsel on that subject. The CHAIRMAN. Will you return and answer to the committee this afternoon as to whether you will produce these records or not? Your counsel are here in the room. [After a pause.] It is 1 o'clock. The committee will stand adjourned until 2:30, and you can consult with Mr. Porter during that time.

(Thereupon, at 1 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS

The committee reconvened pursuant to the taking of recess, at 2.30 o'clock p. m., Senator James A. Reed, presiding.

Present: Senators Reed (chairman), Goff, McNary, King, and La Follette.

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL INSULL-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. During the noon adjournment, Mr. Insull, have you had an opportunity to consult with your counsel so that you are now able to tell us whether you will answer the questions touching the check, and produce the check?

Mr. INSULL. I have discussed the matter fully with my attorneys, and they have advised me to offer to supply you with the check and necessary explanations, and to do that I would have to go to Chicago; and I do not want to come back here unless it is necessary. I would like to send the check to you with a statement, if that will suit your convenience.

The CHAIRMAN. I am afraid it would not. I can not tell, until I see the check, what its importance may be. I do not want to put you to any hardship. I know you are a very busy man, Mr. Insull, and we are just quite as busy, and any prolongation of this hearing is equally a hardship to us.

Mr. INSULL. I particularly want to be in Chicago on Monday night. It is very important that I should be.

The CHAIRMAN. Monday next?

Mr. INSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you be here on Wednesday?

Mr. INSULL. That would be the 2d of March.

The CHAIRMAN. Wednesday would be the 2d of March. Then you could be here by Wednesday of next week, could you?

Mr. INSULL. I do not think so. I will not be in my office until Wednesday.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, if you left to-day?

Mr. INSULL. Yes. Everything will be closed up to-morrow. It is a holiday.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not want this to go until so near the end of the session that no action can be taken at this session.

Mr. INSULL. It would be a great convenience to me not to have to be here until Wednesday.

The CHAIRMAN. Of next week?

Mr. INSULL. Yes. I have got the most important annual meetings of the year next Monday.

The CHAIRMAN. I will consult with the other members of the committee in regard to that. Let me ask you one or two questions, outside of the matters I have inquired about,

Mr. INSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You made a trip to Europe, did you not, some time before the primary election, which was held on the 13th day of April?

Mr. INSULL. Yes; I go regularly, in the summer and in the fall of

every year.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you remember what time you got back from Europe?

Mr. INSULL. No, I do not; but I will be ready with that information.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you give this money, or the major part of this $230,000, before you went to Europe or after you returned? Mr. INSULL. The major part-I gave quite a large part of it before I went to Europe; quite large.

The CHAIRMAN. And you gave some of it afterwards?

Mr. INSULL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you give the $40,000 after you came back from Europe or before you went to Europe?

Mr. INSULL. I imagine before, but I am not sure. I probably can check that up to some time.

The CHAIRMAN. Did your attorney, Mr. Schuyler, advance any money for you while you were away, or before you went?

Mr. INSULL. I do not know whether he did or not. I would have to inquire.

The CHAIRMAN. When does your train go to Chicago to-day, that you want to take?

Mr. INSULL. I take a train at 7.25.

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The CHAIRMAN. When the rest of the committee come in, we will consult with reference to when we are going to ask you to return, and let you know in time for you to catch that train. I want to wait until Senator McNary comes in.