"MY LORDS, peace, and the promotion of the general welfare of my people." Answer to be entered upon the journals of the House. TRIAL OF THE EARL OF CARDIGAN.] The Lord Chancellor had to inform their Lordships that he had felt it his duty to hold a communication with Mr. Justice Bosanquet, who presided as senior judge nal Court, upon a matter connected with at a recent sitting of the Central Crimicertain proceedings which had taken place respecting a Member of their Lordships' House. He had received from Mr. Jus tice Bosanquet the following answer : committee they would assist him in opposing the details of the bill, and then "I thank you for your loyal and affectionthere would be no difficulty in getting rid ate address. I entirely rely upon your as of the question. He divided the House sistance in the maintenance of the best interon the second reading, and those Gentle-ests of the country, in the preservation of men voted with the hon. and learned Gentlemen. He of course supposed, that when the bill came to the committee, he should have had the assistance of those Members, amongst whom were her Majesty's Attorney-general, and some of the Cabinet Ministers, but when the bill came into committee, he had as much reason to complain of the state of the House as the hon. and learned Gentleman had. Those who had promised him their support were not in attendance, and he had to fight against the bill single handed. He would not commit the same mistake again, and therefore it was, that he was determined to fight it in every stage, and if he could not get support in that House, he would endeavour to get it out of it. He considered the bill as one that was calculated to inflict the greatest injustice on certain portions of the community. In the very outset of the question, the hon. and learned Gentleman and himself were at issue upon the true principle on which the judgment of Members ought to be guided with re-nell Phipp Tuckett, with intent to murder, to spect to the measure. He considered, that that judgment ought to be formed upon its utility. He did not agree with that mode of meeting the question. He contended, that the interests of authors and the interests of the public were both to be considered, and properly and duly weighed. It was upon these grounds that the discussions before the judges and the House of Lords proceeded. On former occasions, when this question had been argued, the hon. and learned Member had said, "I have the common law right with me.' Debate adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS, MINUTES.] NEW PEER.-Earl Somers took his Seat on Read a first time:-Copyhold Enfranchisement. ANSWER TO THE ADDRESS.] The Lord Chancellor announced to the House that the Lords appointed to present the Address of the House to her Majesty had waited on her Majesty accordingly, and that her Majesty had been graciously pleased to return the following answer : "Montague-place, Jan. 28, 1841. "My Lord-In answer to your Lordship's inquiry respecting the proceeding at the Central Criminal Court, in the case of the Earl of Cardigan, in October last: I have the dictment having been found by the grand jury honour to acquaint your Lordship, that an inagainst the Earl of Cardigan for feloniously shooting, with a loaded pistol, at Harvey Gar maim, and disable him, and to do him grievous bodily harm against the form of the statute in that case made and provided, Mr. Adolphus (as counsel for the Earl) moved the court to direct, that the recognizances of the Earl and his sureties for his appearance at the Central Criminal Court might be respited to the ensuing sessions, on the ground, that the Earl being a Peer could not be tried in that court, whereupon it was ordered, that the recognizances should be respited accordingly, dictment to be tried before a proper tribunal, to afford an opportunity of removing the ineither of the Lord High Steward, or of the House of Peers. I have further ascertained by inquiry of the clerk of arraigns, that similar orders have been made at each subsequent sessions for the respite of the recognizances. -I have the honour to be, my Lord, your Lordship's obedient servant. J. B. BOSANQUET." "The right hon. the Lord High Chancellor." Their Lordships being thus, by the authority of the judge before whom the question arose, put into possession of a knowledge of the facts, it was for their Lordships to say, whether they thought it right, that the course which had been adopted in all similar cases should be adopted on the present occasion, and that The Earl of Haddington was exceedingly glad to hear the noble Viscount say so; but from the nature of the discussions that had taken place, and from all the circumstances of the case, he thought it was impossible that the question could be brought to a satisfactory termination without the intervention of Parliament. House adjourned. would be for their Lordships to appoint a | the noble Viscount was disposed to leave committee to inquire into the course of the law as it stood, he wished to ask him proceeding which it would be proper for if he was equally disposed to see the law the House to pursue upon the information effectually administered for the protection laid before them. If it should meet the of those who were determined to obey it? pleasure of their Lordships, he would pro- Viscount Melbourne: That is a matter pose that a committee be appointed. He of course. found, upon consulting the journals of the House, that the practice in cases of this sort had not been uniform. Sometimes Peers had been individually selected to form a committee, but in the majority of cases the committee consisted of all Peers who had attended during the existing session. This was the course adopted in the last case of a similar nature that came before that House. His Lordship then moved, that a committee be appointed, consisting of all Peers who had attended during the present Session, to inspect the journals of the House with respect to the trials of Peers in criminal cases, and to report thereupon. Motion agreed to, Committee to meet lace, to present the Address to her Maon Monday. jesty, in answer to the Speech from the Throne. CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.] The Earl of Haddington called the attention of the House to the unhappy dissensions that had so long prevailed in the Church of Scotland, and to the position in which the civil court and the church courts stood towards each other. He wished to ask the noble Viscount opposite whether it was the intention of Government to introduce any measure with a view to allay the prevailing heats and animosities, and to produce, as much as any legislative measure could effect that object, a settlement of the question; or whether, being satisfied with the existing state of the law, seeing no ground for alteration, and being determined that the law should have its full effect, and that those who cbeyed it should receive protection, the Government thought it better to make no application to Parliament for any change of the law? Viscount Melbourne entirely agreed with the noble Earl as to the great importance of this question. He could assure the noble Earl that Government had given the most serious consideration to the question, and having done so, he must say, that he was not prepared to bring in any measure at present to alter the law respecting the Church of Scotland. The Earl of Haddington said, that as HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, January 28, 1840. The House only met for the purpose of going in procession to Buckingham Pa HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, January 29, 1840. DRAINAGE OF TOWNS.] The Marquess of Normanby begged to lay upon the Table a bill to which he would request their Lordships to give a first reading. He should feel it his duty, in a future stage. to call their Lordships' attention to the bill in detail, and he was sure their Lordships would readily give their attention, when they understood the nature of the bill, and when they were informed that it had for its object not only the social condition, but the bodily health of large classes of our fellow-subjects. The bill he proposed to be read a first time was entitled, "An Act for the better drainage and improvement of Buildings in large Towns and Cities." The commission which had been appointed to enquire into this subject had collected a great mass of information, which had been laid before their Lordships. At the conclusion of the Session, he had directed his attention to the evidence collected; in fact, he had read every word, and would strongly recommend the perusal of it to such of their Lordships as had not already bestowed their attention upon it, and for that purpose he would allow a sufficient period to elapse between the first and second read ing of the bill. He regretted to say, that at present there was by no means sufficient provision for the social comfort or health of great masses of the industrious classes in those localities which they necessarily inhabited; and although any remedy they might be able to apply might be only a palliative, and to a certain extent a preventive for the future, still he thought it was an imperative duty upon Parliament to apply themselves to this subject with the greatest zeal and diligence. Lord Ellenborough was exceedingly glad that the noble Marquess had laid this bill on the Table. He had read the evidence with the greatest pain and apprehension, and with the greatest compassion for those who were compelled to inhabit the dwellings referred to, and he would certainly assist the noble Marquess in the progress of this bill, to the best of his ability. Bill read a first time. FROST, WILLIAMS, AND JONES.] Lord Wharncliffe said, he wished to put a question to the noble Marquess opposite, upon a subject which had caused, among the sound part of the population, very great excitement. Their Lordships would remember that, last year, three persons, Frost, Williams, and Jones, were condemned to death for high treason, and that their sentences were afterwards commuted to transportation for life. He could not describe the nature of the crime of which these men were found guilty, in better terms than those employed by the learned Chief Justice of the Common Pleas in passing sentence. That learned Judge used these words "In the case of all ordinary breaches of the Jaw, the mischief of the offence does for the most part terminate with the immediate injury sustained by the individual against whom it is levelled. The man who plunders the property or lifts his hands against the life of his neighbour, does by his guilty act inflict in that particular instance, and to that extent, a loss or injury on the sufferer or his surviving friends. But they who by armed numbers, or violence, or terror, endeavour to put down established institutions, and to introduce in their stead a new order of things, open wide the flood-gates of rapine and bloodshed, destroy all security of property and life, and do their utmost to involve a whole nation in anarchy and ruin. It has been proved in your case that you combined together to lead from the hills, at the dead hour of night, into the town of Newport, many thousands of men, armed in many in stances with weapons of a dangerous description, in order that they might take possession of the town, and supersede the lawful authority of the Queen therein, as a preliminary step kingdom. It is owing to the interposition of to a more general insurrection throughout the Providence alone that your wicked designs were frustrated: your followers arrive by daylight, and after firing upon the civil power and the Queen's troops, are, by the firmness of the magistrates and the cool and determined bravery of a small band of soldiers, defeated and dispersed. What would have been the fate of the peaceable and unoffending inhabitants, if success had attended your rebellious designs, it is useless to conjecture; the invasion of a foreign foe would in all probability It is for the crime of treason committed under have been less destructive to property and life. these circumstances that you are now called upon yourselves to answer, and by the penalty which you are about to suffer, you hold out a warning to all your fellow-subjects, that the law of your country is strong enough to repress and to punish all attempts to alter the established order of things by insurrection and armed force, and that those who are found guilty of such treasonable attempts must expiate their crime by an ignominious death." It would be remembered that a technical objection had been taken in favour of the prisoners, respecting the delivery of the list of witnesses, and although the objection was overruled by the judges, still, in consequence of what occurred in connexion with that objection, the sentence passed on the prisoners was commuted. He begged to say that he did not find fault with the executive for not carrying the extreme penalty of the law into execution under the circumstances; but what he wished to know was, whether these men were now undergoing the punishment of transportation for life in the same manner as other prisoners sentenced to the same punishment for offences of a less heinous description. He was far from bringing any charge against the Government, he was merely anxious to obtain information, and upon that information it would depend whether he would bring any charge or not. After all that had passed on this subject, he thought that the people of this country had a right to inquire into the circumstances of the case, and to know the actual state of things. He first saw it stated, upon the authority of a newspaper of the country to which these persons were sent, that they had obtained favours, and even offices under the Government, inway in stead of being treated in the usual which prisoners were treated. When he saw this statement he must say he disbe lieved it, and still continued to disbelieve, from Sir John Franklin? If the answer it. A letter, however, had since been received, purporting to be written by Frost himself. This letter had been read by a son of Frost at a Chartist meeting at Bristol, which took place this month, and which was convened for the purpose of presenting a petition in favour of a commutation of the sentence on Frost. The letter, he ought to state, had been received with loud cheers. The first passage that attracted his notice was the following: "I am at Port Arthur, a place to which the very worst of men are sent, and where human misery may be seen to probably its greatest extent. I was not, however, sent here for what is called punishment. The governor told us repeatedly that we were not sent to Port Arthur as a punishment, but to fill certain offices." were that instructions had been sent to, and despatches received from Sir J. Franklin, then he would wish to see them before he formed a judgment upon the matter; but he thought that all their Lordships would agree that the thing ought not to be left in the state it was at present, and that the impression ought not to be allowed to remain that these men had been treated with favour after having had their sentence commuted. The public ought to be assured, the prisoners' guilt having been established, and the enormity of their crime not having been disputed by any body, that they would be treated in a manner that that crime deserved. At present, he made no charge against her Majesty's Government, but he would be most happy to hear any explanation that would be given. The Marquess of Normanby said, that before he proceeded to answer the precise question put to him, he must say, that he felt sincerely obliged to the noble Baron for having read again the opinion of the learned Judge who passed sentence upon Messrs, Frost, Williams and Jones, upon the nature of their offence, and the enormity of their acts. He thought, however, that course was less necessary in the present instance, because, from the peculiar circumstances attending the conviction, the Now, he would ask, was not this extraordinary language for the governor to hold towards persons in the situation of these prisoners? He should like to know what could have induced Sir John Franklin to use such language. He was far from believing that Frost spoke the truth; but still those circumstances having excited general notice ought to be explained. The letter, after describing the treatment to which the writer had been subjected on his arrival at Van Diemen's Land, and the fact of the three prisoners being imme-matter was discussed in that House last diately sent to Port Arthur, contained these words: "It was intimated, I do no not know how truly, that there were instructions from the highest authority, and that it was intended to favour us. year, at the period when a determination was come to, on account of the nature of the extreme sentence, but to commute it to the conviction, not to carry into execution that next in severity. Upon that occasion he had had an opportunity of repeating, in Now, he should like to know whether his own opinion of the extreme enormity the language of the learned Chief Justice, such instructions were really sent out? of the offence of the parties-an offence not The letter stated that the three prisoners merely partaking in its worst form of the were sent to Port Arthur-that there they atrocious crime of high treason, but attended were not treated like the rest of the pri- by many circumstances that gave it the soners-that they were not required to character of deliberate murder on a large put on the prison dress-that he (Frost) scale. Having said thus much with rewas employed in the office of the governor, ference to the opinion he had then exand that another of the prisoners was an pressed, he now begged to state, that all overlooker of the colliery. Now, he again he had heard since, all that he had seen said, that he did not place much reliance and observed of the conduct of the people upon those statements; but the first ques- of this country, some portion of whom had tion he felt inclined to ask was, whether been misguided by these individuals and those statements were true, and whether, others, tended to convince him of the in point of fact, they had been better justice of their punishment, and of the detreated than other prisoners? Secondly, lusion that had been occasioned by the whether any instructions had, in point of selfishness, the insane selfishness, of these fact, been sent from her Majesty's Govern- individuals who had put themselves forment upon the subject; and lastly, whe-ward as leaders. His noble Friend asked ther they had received any despatches him as he understood these questions; and first, as to the actual state of in-, of the penal settlements. It was a common formation upon the subject, whether the thing to send persons, who had on the report was true of these persons being voyage misconducted themselves, to Port employed by the governor, and no longer Arthur, and therefore it was possible, when treated as convicts; secondly, whether any the governor conceived it right and pruspecial instructions had been sent out on the dent to separate these three convicts from subject of the treatment of these persons; and the rest, that he might have said to them, lastly, what communications had been re- that they were not sent to Port Arthnr from ceived from the governor Respecting the pre- any intention to inflict extra punishment. No sent state of information, he must recur to special favour was shown, and neither were what took place subsequent to the condemna- there any instructions to treat these contion of these persons. No time had been lost victs in a particularly harsh or unusual manby her Majesty's Government in showing ner. As to the occupation of these persons, their determination to carry into effect that he had received no very distinct informsecondary puuishment, which had been re-ation on the subject; but he rather believed commended as a substitute for the capital it was customary in some remote districts, one. The circumstances were so recently where there was no possibility of furnishing in the recollection of the public, that it an adequate number of clerks, to employ was almost unnecessary to recur to them. persons of a better style of education so act In February the Mandarin sailed from as clerks, and this person (Frost) being Portsmouth, and no special instructions of more accustomed to write than to dig, it any kind were given as to the treatment. was very possible that he had been so This he stated most positively. The usual employed, still known as a convict, and code of instruction was rigidly adhered to; without any emolument or reward. If this had been definitively fixed in the year such turned out to be the case, no doubt 1838, and narrowed the discretion of the go- it was done by Sir J. Franklin, accordvernor; and, on the arrival of the prisoners at ing to the usual and common course, Van Diamen's land, it was utterly out of and was not intended in the way of a the question that the governor could give a favour, If it were intended as a favour, ticket of leave, which amounted to the first Sir John Franklin had certainly misconstep to a conditional pardon, until a certain ceived the intentions of the Government at time had expired. With regard to their home; and if it were out of the ordinary having been allowed their own clothes, he course, he would have reported it at once, really was not aware what the rule upon among other things, in the despatch which that subject was in the colony; but they he had forwarded to the head of the Colohad a letter from Frost himself to a friend nial Department. That despatch he was in this country complaining that he and his prepared to lay on the Table of the House. companions were compelled to wear the or- He was glad that his noble Friend had dinary convicts' dress upon the voyage, but given him an opportunity of correcting the which shewed that the Government at misrepresentations that existed upon that home had made no special relaxtion on subject in the public mind; and he could this subject. With regard to the treat-assure his noble Friend, that the Government in the colony, he had a letter from ment was actuated by the same feelings Sir John Franklin, dated the 3rd of July, as himself, and were most anxious to upin which he acknowledged the arrival hold the laws of the country, and to of 212 male convicts by the ship Man-punish in the most severe manner a crime darin, and that they had been placed in the penal gangs on the roads, with the exception of Frost, Williams, and Jones, who had been sent to Tasman's Peninsula. He believed it was usual for the governor personally to inspect all convicts on their arrival, and he was not aware that Sir John Franklin did more than was customary in the case of these prisoners. From the intelligence that had been received from Sir J. Franklin, it would appear that he made no distinction between these three convicts and the others, except sending them to a different place, and that place one that was looked to as the most severe which had occasioned great loss of life, which endangered the tranquillity of the country, and which was a disgrace to that part of the kingdom in which it occurred. Lord Wharncliffe wished to know whether the noble Marquess would have any objection to lay any further information which the Government might receive upon the Table. The Marquess of Normanby had no objection whatever to do so. It was generally supposed that the same indulgence had been given to these parties as to other political offenders; but political offenders were of various degrees. It was to be |