Captain SEBREE. Oh, nothing, except to come up the river at night. The river is a third of a mile wide, with bends in it. If they did not have a light, they must tie up. If they have a light, they can come in. The CHAIRMAN. The channel is the full width of the river there? Captain SEBREE. Yes; but in coming up at night they can not see where the bend is, and they will not run.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the place where the President, when he was down there last fall, put up?

Captain SEBREE. Yes. That is down there at Sixtymile Point60 miles below New Orleans. They ran in there. It is probably a hundred and fifty feet deep. There would be a case of extraordinary cost, Mr. Chairman, that would come out of supplies. That vessel was run into. The local inspectors decided that our men were not in any way to blame; that the other vessel was to blame. We had to repair her. It cost from $15,000 to $18,000 to get her fixed. Of course we have a suit against the owners of this vessel for it.

The CHAIRMAN. But you had to meet the emergency?

Captain SEBREE. Yes. We had to take the money right then to get it, or else tie the vessel up and lose her service for a year. If that money is recovered, we will not get it in the Light-House Service. It goes right back into the great sea of the Treasury. It belongs to the Government, but it does not come to us.

The CHAIRMAN. Where did you intend to spend the other $50,000, Captain?

Captain SEBREE. Two thousand dollars upon the Illinois River and $24,000 there. That would make $26,000. That would leave $24,000, which would be for increase in the numbers that are constantly asked for, if we had the money to supply them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have to provide for the lights on the upper Mississippi?

Captain SEBREE. Oh, yes; from the Gulf or jetties to St. Paul, and up the Illinois River, and up the Ohio River, and up the Tennessee River.

Mr. SMITH. I do not think, in fairness to the Captain, that we should leave that in that shape. The increase is $75,000, and he has explained only $26,000. It leaves $49,000 that you [addressing Captain Sebree] have not explained there.

The CHAIRMAN. I mentioned the $50.000 which was left after you expended the $25,000 from New Orleans to the Gulf.

LIGHTS IN ALASKAN AND HAWAIIAN WATERS.

Captain SEBREE. Two thousand dollars for the Illinois River. If they should put in lights, as we have asked permission to do in Alaskan and Hawaiian waters, which is new, that would help very much.

The CHAIRMAN. How much do you estimate will be the cost of putting the lights in Alaskan waters and in the Hawaiian waters?

Captain SEBREE. It would depend upon the number that we could put in.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you acquainted with the waters of southeastern Alaska-both American and Canadian?

Captain SEBREE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How do the lights in the American waters compare in number with the lights in the Canadian waters?

Captain SEBREE. I have not been up there since we had any. know how many we have. I think that for our part of it, up as far as Juneau, which is where the steamers run, we have as many as the Canadians for the number of miles of coast.

The CHAIRMAN. No; we have not. I have made two trips up there. That is one of the great complaints of our steamship people. Captain SEBREE. When were you up there, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Last summer, and two years before that. Captain SEBREE. I have not been up there for five years, and we had not any at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know the cost of the light-houses in Alaska?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. In general terms I can give that. The lighthouses that were built at Unimak Pass, Scotch Cap, and Sarichef cost about $80,000 apiece.

Captain SEBREE. What did Lincoln Rock cost?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. I think the contract for that was $38,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Have we any light-houses in southeastern Alaska? Colonel LOCKWOOD. Yes, sir. I was just giving the cost of one at Lincoln Rock. The contract for that was $38,000. It cost a little more than that, because the contractor failed.

The CHAIRMAN. What does that include the light and the keeper's dwelling, and so on?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. It included also a concrete base, upon which the light-house was constructed. Lincoln Rock was low down in the water, nearly washed at high tide, I think. I was up there three years ago when part of the lights were built. I think the light at Marys Island cost something more than that. I can give you the exact figures.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not care particularly about the exact figures. Do you know anything about the cost of the Canadian light-houses? Colonel LOCKWOOD. They cost very much less.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that fact due to the policy of the Canadian government of purchasing the material and sending their employees and carpenters and mechanics with the vessels carrying the material and going right there and constructing the light-houses? That is their policy, is it not?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. I believe so. In a measure it might be due to that, but they do not build the same kind of structures that we do. The CHAIRMAN. I understand they do not, but their structures answer the purpose very well.

Colonel LockwooD. Along in those lower straits the country is thickly populated as compared with southeastern Alaska, and they do not give the Indians that they employ to look after those lights suitable houses to live in. They are chiefly rough structures.

The CHAIRMAN. We have plenty of natives up there, and natives who are as good if not better sailors than the American sailors are, who might be utilized in the same way.

Colonel LOCKWOOD. I have never seen any of them, when I was up there, in charge of an important light.

Captain SEBREE. I do not think they are reliable.

The CHAIRMAN. I am told by captains of vessels that they frequently are obliged to employ native pilots, because they are superior in ability, but when they do it they violate the law, for the reason that they are not allowed to employ anybody but American citizens. Captain SEBREE. They are not American citizens, and I believe they would not be allowed to be employed as light keepers.

The CHAIRMAN. I know; but at the same time their services are availed of by captains, in many instances, up there in Alaska, because of their superior ability with respect to the navigation at certain points.

Colonel LOCKWOOD. In that part of Alaska a man to run a light does not need to be a man of very much ability. It is his fidelity and reliability that are of value.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that it does not require a great deal of mental capacity.

Captain SEBREE. On this subject of lighting rivers, if this law could be extended to include Alaskan waters, as was done with respect to Puget Sound and Washington waters some years ago, we could at a great many places put up those post lights and hire an Indian here and there to take care of them; and if we should put up a dozen or two dozen, the conditions would be very much improved. The CHAIRMAN. Particular attention was called last summer by a number of the men on board our vessel, with other members of Congress in the party, to the fact that our waters in southeastern Alaska were not lighted well in comparison with the Canadian waters. observed that, and my attention was called to it, and I could not help but notice it. That is the reason I asked the question.

Captain SEBREE. I have not been up there since we had any.

The CHAIRMAN. In the Hawaiian waters does the same necessity exist there?

Captain SEBREE. That is the same thing. Instead of putting up a light-house, or even a beacon light, if this were made applicable there we could put up a post, and put a lantern on it, and hire a man anywhere from $6 to $15 a month to attend to it; and as in Alaska and on the rivers, you do not need to see them more than 2 or 3 miles, and they, would answer the purpose. Under the law we could not pay a cent for keeping or constructing a light out of that appropriation. That was asked for last year, and was ruled out. If we get that in that will be where the increase in the number of lights will come in.

The CHAIRMAN. Some of the channels that is, the interisland channels, as you may call them--in Hawaiian waters are very rough. Captain SEBREE. Yes; between the islands. I have been to Honolulu two or three times, and across to the eastern islands.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you been down to the island of Hawaii?
Captain SEBREE. No, sir; I have never been that far.

Mr. SMITH. You have no post lights at all there in Alaska or the Hawaiian Islands?

Captain SEBREE. No, sir. In the Hawaiian Islands we have a larger light than a post light could be. We call it a "beacon light." We have a few of those.

The CHAIRMAN. Did we erect them?
Captain SEBREE. Yes; two or three.

They can not be paid for out of lighting rivers. The keeper has to be paid for out of the sala

ries, and the structure whatever it is, that the beacon light is established on-is paid for by the engineers, and is paid out of the appropriation for repairs to light-houses.

Mr. SMITH. How is the lighting done?
Colonel LOCKWOOD. From repairs.

Captain SEBREE. It has to be paid for out of that appropriation. We do not have to get an act of Congress for that. We have a bigger lantern, as a rule, than we would use for river lights.

SURVEY OF LIGHT-HOUSE SITES.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item, Captain, is for survey of lighthouse sites. That is the same estimate that you have for the current year?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any balance left of the appropriation for the fiscal year 1905?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. I could not be sure of that, sir. It is a very small amount.

Captain SEBREE. It would not continue.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether any amount of that appropriation was expended in the last fiscal year?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. I could not tell you now.

That is an appro

priation that would lapse at the end of the year, and would be returned if it was not expended.

The CHAIRMAN. So I understand.

Colonel LOCKWOOD. I had a list of most of the balances made up, but that does not seem to have been included.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a list there of the balances of all these appropriations that we have been considering?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Yes, sir.

Captain SEBREE. What is that up to?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. February 28, 1906.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean a list of balances at the close of the last fiscal year?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Yes, sir.

Captain SEBREE. Just enumerate them.

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Under repairs, $58,698.

The CHAIRMAN. The balance at the end of this last fiscal year? Captain SEBREE. Yes, sir. Fog signals, $39.967; supplies, $4.317; salaries, $7.657; light vessels, $8,635; buoyage, $16.456; rivers, $3,422. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether at the close of the fiscal year there were outstanding obligations in those appropriations to absorb any part of that balance?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. The balance of the appropriation for repairs on February 28 had been reduced from $58.000 to $34,000.

The CHAIRMAN. On account of balances existing at the close of the fiscal year, chargeable to that appropriation?

Captain SEBREE. They are chargeable, sir.

Colonel LOCKWOOD. All the repairs to light-house tenders are payable from that appropriation for two years after the time has expired, and then any balance is returned to the Treasury.

The CHAIRMAN. But do you pay out of that appropriation any obli

gation other than the obligation that stands against the appropriation at the close of the fiscal year?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Yes, sir; in repairs to light-house tenders, the balance remains for that purpose for two years before it is covered into the Treasury.

The CHAIRMAN. Not unless the contract is made prior to the close of the fiscal year?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Oh, yes; that is an act.

Captain SEBREE. If the disbursing officer can certify on the voucher that the deterioration occurred this year, as in the case, for example, of a light-house tender at Key West, it can be paid out of repairs. We have one there now, and her boiler is in bad condition. If we get those boilers repaired, the inspector certifies that the deterioration occurred during the year 1906. We will say, then, that voucher would be properly payable out of repairs, or buoys, or supplies, or light vessels.

The CHAIRMAN. For 1905?

Captain SEBREE. For 1905 or 1906. It depends on whether he will certify.

The CHAIRMAN. These appropriations are not made for repairs alone, then, for 1905, but under your construction of the law they are made for repairs the necessity for which may arise subsequent to the close of the fiscal year, and at any time during the two years following that?

Colonel LOCKWOOD. Yes; but only in connection with tenders.

Captain SEBREE. He must certify on the face of it that the deterioration of those boilers, for instance, has occurred in that year. For example, in 1906 this boiler is all the time getting worse; we are patching it along, but it will have to have extensive repairs. Suppose they would cost $4,000 or $5,000, and he certifies that this deterioration of these boilers requiring these repairs occurred in the fiscal year 1906; then that could be paid out of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Could be paid out of what?
Captain SEBREE. Out of supplies for 1906.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be paid out of the appropriation for repairs of the fiscal year 1905 under the circumstances you name? Captain SEBREE. Yes, sir.

Colonel LOCKWOOD. The captain overlooked one point. He would certify that the deterioration occurred in that year.

The CHAIRMAN. In 1905?

Captain SEBREE. Yes; if he paid it out of 1905.

Mr. SMITH. Even though he did the work in 1906 or 1907?

The CHAIRMAN. And contracted for the work in 1906 and 1907? If the necessity for the repairs existed or arose in 1905, those repairs, then, under that contract would be paid out of the appropriation for 1905?

Captain SEBREE. Yes.

Mr. SMITH. Or any subsequent year?

Captain SEBREE. Up to two years.

Mr. SMITH. That is to say, you certify that the deterioration took place in the fiscal year 1905?

Captain SEBREE. Yes.

Mr. SMITH. You can pay it out of an appropriation for that year, but if no appropriation for that year is available, for the year in