I have offered this proposition, also, with the expectation of meeting the increase of population in the newly settled counties, and for the purpose of making a compromise between the smaller and the larger counties. We may not district the State again in ten years, and in the course of that time, the northern part of the State will have more than doubled its population; and then, under the reduced system, the south-period. But time and experience have doubtern portion will be largely in the minority.

refused to adopt the recommendation. Did the gentleman ever see those members who voted against the reduction called in question for their votes by the people? No, sir; the people held the right of representation in greater estimation than any other right, and were willing to pay for it. Governor Wallace, as I have said, honestly entertained the opinions in his message at that less charged them. I do not believe any genMr. PETTIT. That is what the north has tleman is desirous of holding him to an accounhitherto been suffering under, viz.: the majority tability for those opinions. And I further becomposed of the southern portion of the State. {lieve that, if the gentleman himself is interroMr. EDMONSTON. The south have suf-gated in regard to the opinions he holds now on fered something, too, in regard to this matter. the subject, they will be found to differ considThe southern counties have been tied up in erably from those he entertained in 1840. knots, as it were, for the purpose of representation. So the north has not been the only sufferer. I ask it, then, as a matter of compromise from the strong counties, that they leave it in the hands of the Legislature to district the Representatives throughout the State. Unless we do that we shall get into difficulty. The discontented portion of the counties of the State will come up and poll a strong vote against the new Constitution.

The people, sir, have not desired, nor do they desire, a reduction of representation. They say they want a voice in the body sent here to make laws for them:-and the expense of that representation is with them, as mere dust in the balance. The right which is held most sacred in the estimation of a free people, is the right of representation.

I am willing, sir, as a matter of compromise, let the representation stand as it does at present, at fifty members in the Senate, and one with the Legislature hereafter, in accordance hundred in the House; leaving it discretionary with the wishes of their constituents, to increase the number in the House to one hundred

and twenty. It must be evident to every gen-
tleman, that we must have a compromise in this
matter, and it appears to me that the measure I
be adopted.
have proposed is the most feasible one that can

Mr. RARIDEN. I have not taken part in the discussion of this subject hitherto, although I had thought a good deal about it before I came here.

Will any gentleman say that one hundred to Representatives are too many to represent a million of souls? I think not, with any degree of fairness. I noticed that the gentleman from Hendricks, (Mr. Nave,) who advocated the reduction principle, appeared to speak as if the whole State rested upon his shoulders-he said that the people of Indiana demanded the reduction. Where, I would ask, did the gentleman get his information from? Has he visited every portion of the State, and inquired what was the will of the people on the subject? The amount of it is, he takes the broad ground that Hendricks county reflects the will of every county in the State. I could take the position, sir, following his example, that the gentlemen does not reflect the will of his own county;-but I will not take that ground, although I could take it as fairly as the gentleman takes the position he has assumed. To prove his position, he reads an extract from a message, delivered by Governor Wallace, in 1840, in which the Gov. ernor recommended a reduction of the number of Representatives. But what does this extract prove? It proves directly the reverse of the position of the man from gentle Hendricks, as any gentleman can readily perceive. For that was the time when economy was very strictly regarded and exercised. We all recollect that that was just after the great crash of the internal improvement system, when the people were staggering under the enormous debt which they had incurred, and surely, if there was any period when a saving could have been made, it was at this time. But what was the result of the recommendation, which I, have no doubt, was honestly and patriotically made by Governor Wallace, at that time? Why, the Legislature

The first inquiry that presents itself to mind is, what is the cause of the vicious legislation we have been compelled to endure for the last eight or ten years? The gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) attributes it very justly to local legislation; but what has induced that legislation? It arises from the number of Representatives here, who individually have felt that they were charged with local interest which it was their duty to take care of and advance in every possible way. This has been the cause of so much vicious legislation, the representation of local interests in the Legislature. Although there is nothing in the present Constitution to justify it, yet it follows local representation as a consequence. We have no occasion to make special provision in the Constitution in order to put a stop to the evil; we need only to change the character of the representation here. We should reduce the number so that members cannot represent local interests, and it ceases. I propose, then, to make a prop{osition which I think will remedy the evil, and

gentleman from Wayne (Mr. Rariden) thinks › my own representative district which is com that one senator can represent six thousand posed of four counties, and see how they are taxable polls, as well as two or three. I hope represented in the Legislature. The arrangethat in view of this fact gentlemen living inment these counties have entered into in regard large counties will show their generosity to- to representation is this: One county sends a wards the smaller counties. This they ought representative one year, another the next year, to do, unless they assume the position that they and so on, each having a representative once in possess more capacity to legislate for the small four years. A necessary consequence growing Counties, than those counties do to legislate for out of this is that the representation upon all themselves. This I leave for gentlemen to de- local questions that arise, will represent the cide who have the power to decide it. The wishes and will of the people of his resident other day when the gentleman from Wayne county, regardless of the opposing interests of introduced resolutions approving of the com- the residue of the district, and the result is that promise measures of the last session of Con- these counties are no more represented in your gress, he supported them boldly and ably, and Legislature three years out of the four, than if voted for them; but at least two of the repre- they were a part of the Commonwealth of Kensentatives from the same county voted on the tucky. other side. Now they could not all represent An increase of the number of representatives the people of Wayne county, undoubtedly not. is objected to on the score of economy, but I Sir, it is true that a representative before he think as the gentleman from Wayne (Mr. Rar takes his seat in either branch of the Legisla-iden) has correctly stated, that the people would ture, solemnly swears that he will support the rather economize in any other particular, than Constitution of the United States, and of this by reducing their representation. As citizens State, and discharge the duties of a representa-have no higher privilege than that of suffrage, tives of the State of Indiana. Not a word in the obligation about counties or local interests. This is the business of a representative beyond all manner of doubt. But who will deny that there are always local interests in the several counties requiring and deserving the special attention of one who may know from personal observation their merits. Although by our action here we may relieve the General Assembly of much legislation, in respect to local mat-ty having a separate and distinct interest from ters, yet we cannot dispense with it entirely. And in conclusion permit me to repeat that I hope Switzerland and Ohio counties may not be separated in the formation of senatorial districts.

Mr. KENDALL of White. Hitherto, Mr. President, I have refrained entirely from taking part in the discussions that have taken place in this body, having been a silent, though not inattentive member of it, and I experience considerable diffidence in deviating as I now do, from my usual course.

so counties have no higher privilege than that of representation and participating in the State councils. I think further that it would be much more reasonable to assert that the large counties of Marion and Wayne, for instance, could be effectually and sufficiently represented by one representative, than that four counties could be so represented; for in the latter case, there is often a conflict of interests, each coun

all other counties, whilst in the large and populous county there is unity of interest. I hope, therefore, that this fact will be borne in mind by those delegates representing the larger counties of the State that have two or more representatives, and that they will not exact too much from the new counties which are rapidly increasing in population, but will be disposed to give them a fair and indeed liberal share, in the representation of the State. It is asserted that representation and taxation should go together, but this principle bears heavily upon This, sir, is a question in which my constitu- the new counties. We have a burdensome ents take a deep interest. There is no topic State debt which these new counties had no perhaps that is brought forward in the new agency in creating, and yet they, unrepresented counties for consideration that excites more in the creation of it, are to share in the taxafeeling, or gives rise to more discussion than tion necessary to discharge the interest on an the right of representation. They look upon indebtedness from which they have derived no it as the only evidence of their political im- benefit. I trust that a liberal system of repreportance and consideratton. During this dis-sentation will be settled upon, so far as the cussion the inquiry has been made again and again why one person may not be as capable of representing two, three, and four counties, as well as of representing one, and it is asserted by some gentlemen that two or more counties can have their interests as well cared for by one representative as though each county had a representative. This assertion does not agree with my own limited experience and observation on this subject. Take for example

new and weaker counties are concerned. Representation in these new counties has hitherto been kept at a great distance as it were from. the people, and I am persuaded that they are possessed of no right which this Convention might be disposed to abridge that would excite among them as much angry resentment as this right of representation. I am satisfied that nothing will do so much to prejudice the success of any Constitution that may be submitted.

to them, as the diminution of their political importance. However wholesome otherwise its provisions may be, however advantageous some, if not all of its amendments, the feeling proper for its favorable consideration will not be conciliated, if this reduction be insisted on. They will prefer to retain their present position under the old Constitution to any promised advantages, coupled with such sacrifice. I hope, therefore, that if no greater rights of representation are extended to them that their situation will not be rendered less desirable, and that the provisions of the present Constitution, if more liberal terms cannot be granted, may be allow ed to remain in force.

Mr. STEELE. Perhaps it is necessary, after the various votes that have been taken upon this subject, that I should give the reasons for the manner in which I have voted. I first voted to reduce the number of representatives and in favor of sustaining the section reported by the committee, because I believed that a reduced number could perform all requisite legislation. I found, however, that the Convention did not intend to sustain that system, and I then went on and voted for a section providing for a continuance of the present number of representatives in the Legislature. I refer to the section now before us. No argument, sir, has as yet convinced me that it is my duty to vote for the instructions to this section, the amendment to the instructions, or for the re-commitment of the section. I believe, that, to consider either of these propositions is but a waste of the time of this body, and that it will be going over ground we have already traveled over. It appears to me it will not be very much to our credit, and that our action will appear very trifling, so far, if we do not sustain what we have already agreed upon without any refer

ence.

Mr. KELSO, who said: I desire to say a word or two in reference to this matter, before it is finally disposed of. I would first inquire of the gentleman from Jefferson, (Mr. Dunn,) whether he will not modify his amendmentwhich, being to the original section, has not yet been acted upon-so as to fix the number of senators at thirty-five, and the number of representatives at one hundred and sixteen, instead of one hundred and fifteen. Mr. DUNN of Jefferson. difference is in no wise material.

Certainly; the

Mr. KELSO. It is understood, then, that the gentleman from Jefferson has modified his amendment as I suggested. I desire to say a few words with reference to his proposition as it now stands.

And first, sir, with reference to the amendment offered by the gentleman from Dubois, (Mr. Edmonston,) proposing fifty senators and one hundred representatives, and after 1860 to increase the number in the House to one hundred and twenty, if necessary.

Now, sir, that kind of amendment is but of little or no use whatever. The smaller counties would be benefited but little by a twothird or three-quarter ratio. The county from which I come would suffer nothing until you get above twenty-five hundred polls. The county of Ohio, taxed for representative purposes, would not be benefited if you reduced her ratio to one-half.

Now, sir, the question is: What sort of compromise shall be made? It is very certain, if we are to be governed entirely in both branches of the Legislature by any basis of representation, that population is the proper basis. I have already, sir, appealed to the Convention to make population a basis of representation; but that appeal has been disregarded, and I shall not attempt to bring it forward again. I have only to say, that, if we fix upon any basis, population is the true basis. But I have only to say that one hundred and sixteen representatives and thirty-four senators is about as good a system of representation as we can fix upon. The counties must be attached for representative purposes, and the State must, therefore, be districted by this Convention; or if not, it becomes the duty of the Legislature to district the State.

I can say, sir, with the gentleman from Tippecanoe, (Mr. Pettit,) and the gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) that I believe represent ation ought to be based upon numbers. That has been my opinion all along. But, while I thus believe, I would state that I think this section, providing for fifty senators and one hundred representatives, will meet with the approval of the people probably more fully than any other that can be presented. As far as the question of reduction of representation is con- There are three leading interests in this cerned, the people take but little interest in it, State-agricultural, commercial, and manuif any. When we take into consideration the facturing. Each county has at least one of amall reduction proposed to be made by this these interests within its limits, some, two of motion to re-commit-only fifteen Senators-them, and a few, all three. But these interests and that the actual expense will not amount to three thousand dollars in two years- as we are to have biennial sessions-it appears to me to be a very small item to waste our time in discussing.

Mr. SMITH of Scott called for the previous question, but withdrew his motion at the request of

do not necessarily come in conflict with each other; and there will be no difficulty in attaching counties for representative purposes, provided care be taken to attach counties for representative purposes whose interests run in the same channel, as far as practicable. I would prefer, even to this, the proposition of the gentleman from Wayne, (Mr. Rariden,) to

take, as a basis for senators, six thousand polls,
and for representatives, two thousand polls; if,
for the only reason, that it would indirectly re-
duce the number of senators. But if we are
to take the number as it now stands, in the ag-
gregate of one hundred and fifty members, I
think it would certainly be more even-handed
justice to take the proposition of the gentleman,
from Jefferson, of thirty-four senators and one
hundred and sixteen representatives - thus
making the total of one hundred and fifty, for
which so many gentlemen strenuously contend.
Gentlemen suppose that nothing but fifty
Senators and one hundred Representatives will
satisfy the people. Sir, any number will sat
isfy the people. Thirty Senators and sixty
Representatives will satisfy the people better
than fifty Senators and one hundred Represent
atives; and, sir, if even that proposition was
submitted to the people, they would as certain-
ly reduce as they lived to vote. It is not the
feeling of the people that we bring here with
The Legislature that fixed the present
number of Representatives in both branches at
one hundred and fifty members, did not repre-
sent the feelings of the people. And, sir, we,
as members of the Convention, by fixing the
representation at as large a number as is prac-
ticable, stand a fair chance of getting into the
Legislature, those of us who have not been
there, and those who have, of getting there
again. I, who have never had anything short
of a hard race to get into the Legislature at all,
am willing to fix upon six thousand polls as a
basis of representation for Senators, and two
thousand for Representatives. Or I am willing
to reduce the number of Senators to thirty, and
the number of Representatives to sixty or nine-
ty. I will run the risk, and I apprehend that
other members ought to be willing to do the
same thing.

us.

I argue, sir, that to reduce the Senate would be one of the most popular steps this Convention could take. I am satisfied that the people can be made to understand what is to their interest, and that, too, with but little trouble. The large counties will suffer nothing by such an arrangement as regards the Senate, and I am sure they will have equal influence in the

House.

If population, sir, is to be the basis of representation, let us fix upon the smallest possible number, so that as population increases, the number of Representatives may also increase. This is the true policy to adopt.

I concur with the gentleman from Tippecanoe (Mr. Pettit) in one thing, and that is if we are to be governed by general laws, as is proposed, that local interests should not be suffered to interfere in the action of our Legislature; that an individual from the county of Marion can as well represent the interests of the county of Vigo, as a resident of the county. One man can as well represent two thousand people as one thousand. Their interests, if not entirely the same, can be represented by the will of the majority. Besides, I apprehend there are honest men enough out of the county of Vigo to represent her interests fairly.

In common justice, sir, to all parts of the State, I do not think we should fix upon the number of representatives in both branches of the Legislature we need at once, and not make provision for their further increase. If we fix the number of Representatives at one hundred, the northern portion of the State will as its population is rapidly increasing-soon be in advance of the southern and eastern portions of the State-so that they will deprive us of the I therefore equality which belongs to us now. maintain, sir, that territory is the proper basis of representation for the House, and population for the Senate. This is only reversing the system which has been adopted by the General Government. They take territory for their Senate, and population for the House. To be sure, this system would not do exactly strict justice to the small and newly settled counties; but the population of those counties will soon be swelled to the size of the largest counties that are now in the State. Those counties which are now small in size, and which have been long settled, and which cannot reasonably expect an increase of population, will be greatly the sufferers, for they must unquestionably lose the small share of representation which they now enjoy.

I do insist, sir, that if we would allow to each county a Representative, and apportion the Senate upon the basis of population, much nearer even-handed justice would be done. The My friend from Johnson (Mr. Ritchey) as- Senate is but a mere conservative body, calcuserts that a small Senate will become an aris-lated to act as a wholesome check upon the tocratic body. I ask him how a body of thirty more popular branch of the Legislature, to premen, in the discharge of these duties as Sena-vent over hasty and improvident legislation; it tors, will become more aristocratic than fifty men ? What is there to induce such a result? They come here as Representatives of the people; and with a higher degree of personal responsibility than a body of fifty men would have-and the more responsibility rests upon them the greater the care they will take to discharge their duties faithfully and honestly.

also has a salutary influence over the executive branch of our State Government Then why require fifty members to constitute that body, when one half that number would answer every possible purpose that the fifty members could do. By such an arrangement, those small counties would always have a voice in one branch of the Legislature subject to be checked by the Senate, provided they should go astray.