this subject, yet such was his confidence in the virtue of the late ministers, that he never once felt himself called upon to deliver his sentiments upon the present subject: [ A laugh but now when men had succeeded, for whom they both felt such a distrust, his patriotic jealousy at once put an end to that silent and according acquiescence to the judgments and sentiments of honester men.

also appeared to forget the growing population of Ireland.

Mr. Grattan thought it remarkable, that while the gentlemen on the other side agreed to the resolution, they pursued a course of argument directly against it. Their argu ment, indeed, would militate not only against the proposed increase of the institution, but against its original establishment. The principle of the original esta

Colonel Barry said, that certainly the di-blishment was to provide the means of eduligent and punctual attendance of his right hon. friend to his parliamentary duties, in the last sessions, [a laugh,] enabled him to remember accurately all that then passed in that house. Unfortunately, however, he (Col. B.) had spoken on that subject, though he did not expect, nor indeed, did it appear, that it had made any great impression on his right hon. friend.

cating and domesticating the Catholic clergy of Ireland, and thus to protect them from the opportunity of imbibing foreign principles. With that view, the college of Maynooth was instituted, and the state of the continent at the time rendered such an institution peculiarly necessary. Did any alteration take place in the state of the continent to abate the amount or character of Mr. Sheridan said in answer, that if he that University? It was absurd to say, that had not been as vigilant and anxious in his the same number of Roman Catholic clerattention to his parliamentary duties during gymen would suffice for Ireland now, that the last sessions as he usually was, it was was thought requisite in 1795; for that owing to nothing but his unbounded confi- would be to suppose the population at a dence in the late administration. [A laugh.] stand, and nothing could be imagined more Dr. Duigenan denied that the late admi- absurd than to suppose that 200 clergymen nistration had manifested any solicitude to would be sufficient. There were no less promote the interests of the Protestant re- than 2400 parishes and 1100 benefices in ligion in Ireland. On the contrary, he had Ireland; and if so many clergymen were to state that a bill which he introduced, at appointed to instruct one million of Prothe instance of several of the archbishops testants, or rather half that number, for the and bishops of Ireland, to enforce the resi- other half at least of those denominated dence of the clergy, and which bill was a Protestants belonged to the different clastranscript of that brought forward in this ses of dissenters, how could 200 clergymen country by sir W. Scott, was discountenan- be considered competent to perform the ced by that administration, and in conse- ecclesiastical duties of Catholicity to three quence rejected. What the administration millions of people? The idea was preposto which he referred had done for the bee-terous. And as to the expence, the Cafit of the established church in Ireland, he tholics were generally unable to educate had yet to learn. their clergy, and they must be educated at

the learned doctor's accusation.

Lord Howick had no idea that the dis- the public expence, or they must be ignoinclination of the late government to coun-rant and a disgrace to Christianity. The tenance a measure brought forward by the expence was trifling, and the object was learned doctor was likely to depreciate the material. Would any friend to toleration character of that government, either in in common policy starve religion to save England or Ireland. Therefore he did not the treasury 5000/. ?—The right hon. gent. think it necessary to make any attempt at animadverted in terms peculiarly emphavindicating himself or his colleagues against tical upon the statements of those who dwelt upon what they called the uncivilized state of Ireland. Some indeed, said the right hon. gent., affect to say that the great body of the Irish people are mere savages. I will not defend the Irish against such a charge, but I will defend you. If Ireland, after having been so many centuries connected with you, has not learned enough at least to rescue it from the savage state, while the world has been progressively improving, its connection with

Lord Milton observed, that gentlemen, in asserting the sufficiency of a certain number of clergymen to administer the duties of the Catholic religion in Ireland, because such a number was thought necessary in 1795, seemed altogether to exclude the consideration of those events which had since occurred on the continent, which events limited the supplies from that quarter, and

your country has not been a blessing, but a fin the lobby," and which was, upon the nuisance. I will never hear, added the 15th of Feb. 1700, declared to be a standright hon. gent., any reflection upon the ing Order, be read and the same being morals or manners of my country without read, it was ordered, That a committee be rising to resist it. I shall always protest appointed to take the same into consideraagainst any reflections upon a country to tion, for the purpose of enabling the chairwhich I owe so much-to which you owe so man, in all cases where the house has given much-which is still ready to serve you, power to the committee, to send for perand from which, I trust, you will continue sons, papers, and records, to issue an order to derive the most active and ardent sup-accordingly, so that such persons, papers, port. The resolution was then agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Thursday, July 16.

and records may be had in readiness for the committee to proceed upon at the expiration of the week's notice; and that they do report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the house.

Mr.

[MINUTES.] A new writ was ordered for the borough of Orford, in the room of [BREACH OF PRIVILEGE-COMPLAINT lord Robert Seymour, who having been also RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.] elected for the county of Caermarthen, had Jeffery, pursuant to notice, rose to call the made his election to serve for that county. attention of the house to a circumstance, -The speaker informed the house, that he which was not only a violation of law, but had received a letter from Samuel Smith, a high breach of the privileges of that house. esq., who, having been elected for Midhurst On the 29th of April, the writs were issued, and Leicester, bad made his election to as he understood, for the general election, serve for Leicester. A new writ was then and amogst the other writs, one for the ordered for Midhurst.—Mr. Hobhouse re-election of Burgesses to serve in parliament ported from the committee, to whom the for the town and county of the town of Poole. resolution of the house of the 11th day of He had been informed by the messenger of Feb. 1789, respecting the Recognizances the great seal, that this writ had been deto be entered into by any person having livered immediately by him to Mr. Jonathan presented a petition to this house, complain- Brundrett, chief clerk to Mr. Lowten, in the ing of an undue election, was referred; that Temple, to be sent to the sheriff of Poole. the committee had come to the following When he called upon Mr. Lowten, to enresolution; "That, so far as the said reso-quire whether the writ had been sent, he was lution respects the notice required to be informed, that it had been sent three hours given by the petitioner to the sitting mem- before; and on asking to whom the writ had ber or members, or their known agent or been sent, he received a rude answer deagents, of the time and place of the inten-clining to state to whom, and accompanied ded examination of the sufficiency of the with an observation, that it had been sent surety or sureties to be named in any re-down in opposition to himself. It was not cognizance, and of the names, additions, and places of abode of such sureties, if the petitioner shall not have been able to find and serve the sitting member or his known agent or agents, and if he shall thereupon have obtained an order from the house enlarging the time for entering into his recognizance, it shall be sufficient for the petitioner to give the said notice in writing, seven days at least previous to such examination, to the clerk of the house of commons, who shall enter the saine in a book to be kept for that purpose, which shall be open to the inspection of all persons concerned." Ordered, that the said resolution be printed. Mr. C. Dundas moved, that the order of the house of the 24th of Nov. 1699, "That the chairman of the Committee for any Private bill do not sit thereupon, without a week's public notice thereof set up

till the 20th of May that the sheriff gaveno tice, that the election would be held on the 25th of May, and in consequence, sir Richard Bickerton, one of the lords of the admiralty, and himself, who had gone down to Poole when the writs were issued, expecting that the election would come on immediately, with several of the electors of that city, were detained there three weeks to their great inconvenience. He should not detain the house by dwelling upon the motives of the conduct of which he complained, but should only state, that as parties ran high in the town, and the numbers were nearly balanced, the delay had been resorted to, in order to give an opportunity to one person, who would not have been of age to vote till the 22d of May, time to attain the proper age to vote. The consequence was a special return with respect to the two other

business.

candidates; he having been the only per- that there be laid before the house a return son actually returned. He should not of the effective strength of the Volunteer trouble the house farther at present, on the force of Great Britain and Ireland, distinsubject, than by moving, that Mr. Stain-guishing cavalry from infantry, to the latest forth, messenger of the great seal, who period to which the same can be made out. was attending in the lobby, should be called The Chancellor of the Exchequer had no to the bar, to be examined relative to the objection to the motion, as he thought that every information on this subject should be Mr. Creevey wished to know what breach afforded to the house. But he apprehendof privilege the hon. member complained of.ed that the hon. baronet would be disapThe Speaker said, it was his duty to an-pointed, if he expected more accurate inswer that question. Undoubtedly, any formation in this return than in that which person who detained a writ issued for the had been laid on the table in December last. election of a member of that house, was The inspecting field-officers had then beca guilty of a high crime and misdemeanour, done away, and the returns were made by the highest which that house knew, be- the commanding officers of the corps, with cause such conduct had the effect of keeping out any check on the part of government. the representatives of the people, who ought These inspecting field-officers had been only to be in the house, for the time, out of it. just appointed; and, though they might have Mr. Stainforth was then brought to the made returns of a few corps, the great mass bar, and stated, that he had received the of the returns, which by the law were to be writ for Poole a little after twelve o'clock, made every three months, would still rest on the 30th of April, and delivered it with- on the same authority as the returns to in less than two hours after to Mr. Brun- which the hon. bart. had alluded. drett, chief clerk of Mr. Lowten, for the purpose of being forwarded with all possible expedition to the sheriff of Poole. Mr. Stainforth then withdrew, and Mr. T. Lowten and Mr. Jonathan Brundrett were ordered to attend the house to-morrow.

Mr. Shaw Lefevre contended, that if any relaxation had taken place in the zeal of the Volunteers, it was because there did not appear the same occasion for their services, and that, when the enemy should again appear on the coast, they would again rally round their standards. If the Volunteers had been worked, as formerly, he was sure their numbers would have diminished. The measures of the late administration respecting them, he insisted, were wise. He felt warm on this subject, because he had commanded Volunteer corps ever since 1794, and he knew them to be attached to their sovereign and the constitution. Whilst he had a limb to stand upon, he should be found at his post, and he was persuaded the Volunteers would be found to adhere steadily to the principles upon which they associated.

[VOLUNTEERS.] Sir Thomas Turton, in rising to make his motion, in pursuance of his notice, for a return of the effective strength of the Volunteers, felt it impossible not to participate in the satisfaction of the house and of the public, that a noble lord, whom he did not then see in his place, was to-morrow to bring forward a proposition in which this part of the national force would be adequately provided for. There was a return similar to that he wished to call for before the house, presented in December last, but, as he knew that it was inaccurate with respect to three or four regiments, he was sorry that it could not be seen from it Sir T. Turton replied, and contended that how far it was to be depended on. It was such discouraging language as "armed de peculiarly desirable, in the present situation mocracy," "depositaries of panic," &c.which of the country, to know what was the effec- had been applied to them in parliament,had tive strength of its Volunteer force; as it principally tended to diminish the numbers was not to be concealed that that force had of the Volunteers. It was impossible for greatly decreased in consequence of the dis- them, having the feelings of men, to be incouragements which it had met with. He sensible to terms of reproach, and it rewas convinced, however, that the Volun-quired all the influence of their officers to teers were sound at heart, and that, with a keep them from shewing their sense of them little encouragement, they would again fall by withdrawing from their corps. He had into their ranks; and, in the present state raised the corps he now commanded, in 1794, of the country, they should look to the Vo-and had the satisfaction to state, that whatlunteers principally for the defence of the ever provocation might have been given to country. He should conclude by moving, the Volunteers, his corps had not been in

fluenced by it. The motion was then agreed

to.

EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S BONDS BILL.] Mr. Grant moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the East-India Company's Bonds bill. On the question being put,

of that house. He was sorry to find an hon. gent. who had filled the situation lately held by that hon. member, so ignorant of the affairs of the company as to make the assertions he had done. It was true that by the accounts on the table there appeared a deficit at home of above 2,200,000. Mr. Creevey rose, not to negative the se- which the hon. member had stated to be cond reading of this bill, but to move that the amount of the company's loss on their the second reading of it be put off, till the trade, whereas it had arisen from the quantity East-India accounts now printing, should of stores and other articles which were be in the hands of members. The house necessarily sent out in consequence of the siwas not in possession of any documents to tuation in which the company's settlements prove the expediency of agreeing to such were placed. By the plan adopted in 1802 a measure. This was the first instance in for the liquidation of the company's debt, which that house had been called upon to it had been recommended to send out from pass such a measure, without previous en-Europe considerable quantities of bullion, quiry into the grounds upon which it was in order to avoid the necessity of making founded, by having the petition referred to loans on improvident terms in India. This a committee of the house to examine into had been done in 1803, 4, and 5; but the its allegations. There were at present two sums and bullion so sent had been applied budgets in arrear, and the last accounts of to the purposes of the wars that then exthe India company, to which the house isted, so that no reduction of the debt had could resort for information, shewed the af- taken place. So also, when the system in fairs of the company to be in a ruinous India had been changed by marquis Cornstate. By these accounts it appeared, that wallis, considerable sums had been sent there was an excess of above two millions out, not for commercial purposes, but for in the company's foreign expenditure over the general expenditure of the presidencies their revenue, and a loss of 2,200,000l. in in India. Under these circumstances, the their trade at home. Under these circum- company, though by law authorized to instances, and whilst the company had a debt crease their funded stock, had applied to of seventeen millions at home, payable at parliament for authority to issue bonds, the option of the holders, he did not think and this was a much better course for the that parliament would do right to pass this public, besause, if the stock of the company bill without enquiring what means the should not be worth any thing, it would be company had of discharging, as well their irretrievable to the holders, whereas the former debt, as this new incumbrance. bonds might or might not be taken at the He should therefore, notwithstanding the option of the individuals who might specuprospect held out by the hon. director op- late in such securities. What he had said posite, of a permanent peace, and conse- with respect to the prospect of peace, was quent prosperity of the affairs of the com- founded on the report made by the goverpany, move as an amendment, that the nor-general, and he was persuaded that the bill be read a second time on this day jealousies of the native powers had been fortnight. extinguished by the conciliating disposition manifested towards them by our government. On all these grounds, he should vote that the bill be now read a second time.

Mr. Grant replied, that though the hon. member might be actuated by a desire to promote the public interest, he took the wrong course in his speech, for his arguments were founded in ignorance, not in his knowledge of the subject. The sole and simple reason for bringing forward the bill before the India accounts could be brought under the consideration of the house was, that if that course had not been taken, the bill could not be passed this session. The hon. member was aware how difficult it was to prepare the India accounts, so as that they could be presented in a form to be intelligible to the members VOL. IX.

Lord Folkestone defended the statement of his hon. friend, as to the situation of the East-India company's affairs, and contended for the propriety of deferring the discussion, till the papers now printing should be in the hands of the members. He protested against the implied guarantees that would be given to the security of the bonds, without sufficient investigation of the state of the company's affairs. To issue the bonds without such a guarantee, would be to delude the public.

3 H

Lord Howick insisted upon the propriety | be guarantee to the increase of the capital of waiting till the documents now printing which the company had already power to should be before the house. The impor- make by act of parliament. tance and extent of the measure to be pro- Dr. Laurence, as a member of parliaposed to-morrow, for the defence of the ment, ignorant on this subject, and entitled country, would involve details, which to information, contended, that no farwould, in all probability, keep parliament ther proceedings should be had on this sitting for so long a time, as to allow full measure, without full inspection of such doopportunity to pass this measure after am-cuments as could be had. There would be ple discussion. The state of the East-In-abundant time for this. It was generally dia company was such, that if the house understood that the session could not be could not in this session, go into a par- terminated in less than five weeks. ticular investigation of the company's afThe Chancellor of the Exchequer thought fairs, it ought at least to pledge itself by a it strange, that, as this measure had been resolution to do so in the next. He ex-agreed to by the late board of controul, it patiated on the declining state of the com- should now be opposed by the secretary to pany's investments and sales; on the in- that board (Mr. Creevey). He denied that creased dangers menacing our Indian pos- parliament, in passing the bill, guaranteed sessions from the increased power of Bona- the bonds. The present high price of the parte, whose hostile designs against our In-company's stock, 180 per cent., was a suffidian empire were well known. He insisted cient proof of the company's credit, and also on the instability of the peace with the the stability of its funds, without the aid native powers in India. He was of opi- of parliament. The present discussion nion, that those who should advance money was, at least, a sufficient notice that paron the credit of these bonds would have a liament gave no sanction. The parliament claim upon the public, if the company was never supposed to sanction the Westshould prove unable to discharge them. India dock company, or any other private [Certainly not, said Mr.Grant,] That was, speculating company, when an act was in his opinion, at least doubtful. If the passed, enabling such company to increase company could raise the money on its own its capital. It was allowed on all hands, credit, why did it come to parliament? If that the company wanted relief, and this the sanction of parliament was necessary, was the best mode of granting that relief. it was in order to give the bonds a credit, which implied a sanction, amount-and maintained the propriety of proceeding virtually to a guarantee.

Sir A. Wellesley supported the measure,

Lord Morpeth recommended a minute investigation of the company's affairs, with a view to a complete settlement. Temporary arrangements were indeterminate and unsatisfactory.

ing upon it without delay. The company's Mr. R. Dundas defended the raising of investments had been fully attended to. money upon bonds, in preference to the The difficulties arose from the state of the augmentation of the company's capital, continental market, goods to the amount of which the company was already by law en- 7,000,000l. being on hand. The territotitled to make. With respect to the ur-rral revenue in India, afforded a surplus of gency of passing the bill soon, he believed 1,000,000l. above the expenditure. The it was strictly a private bill, and must of late wars had rendered our empire more course be reported this day se'nnight, or secure against any attempt from the native fall to the ground. This, however, the powers. house might dispense with. With respect to the state of the company's affairs, though expensive wars had brought on heavy charges, the Indian empire was as little ruined by those heavy charges, as this country was by the heavy wars it had to sustain in Europe. Neither did the failure of commercial speculations in one or two years imply absolute ruin. The West-India merchants also were under difficulties: but nobody thought of saying they were in danger of being ruined. He denied that the passing of this bill amounted to a gua rantee on the part of parliament. It might as well be argued, that parliament would

Mr. Lamb thought parliament bound to investigate the solvency of the parties to whom it granted power to raise money, and of course responsible in the event of these parties proving insolvent.-The question being put, a division took place,

For reading the bill a 2d time now, 35
Against it

10

The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday,