HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, July 13.

[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.] Lord Sidmouth rose, and expressed himself happy to see a noble lord (Hawkesbury) in his place, from whom he felt desirous to obtain an answer to a question, respecting which his uneasiness every day increased. The object of that question was to learn from the noble lord, if it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to propose any new measure for the Defence of the Country, or to follow up, on a more extended scale, the system that had already been adopted, so as to make it bear some proportion to the increasing dangers of the empire. He felt it his duty to take this step, in order to relieve not only his own anxiety, but the anxiety that every one must feel at a moment so alarming as the present should he have the satisfaction to receive such an answer as he expected, then he should have to request the noble lord to state the time when it was likely such a proposition could be brought forward, adding his wish that it might be on an early day; for as the danger increased every hour, he thought it a matter of the most urgent importance, that it should be provided against without delay.

sions of the American trade bill, which had expired during the recess. The noble earl defended the measure, on the ground of policy and precedent. He allowed that the law had been violated by ministers, but that violation was justified by the reasons of public advantage and benefit which resulted from it, and which parliament had almost uniformly received as a satisfactory justification of such a conduct. Indeed, were it not a violation of the law, why should the crown surrender its prerogative, and come to parliament for a bill of indemnity, when it was obvious no law had been infringed? He could safely. deny that the rate of duties had been raised or diminished in any material degree, or where it would have been safe to have acted otherwise. As to the allowing American ships to carry certain articles contrary to the navigation act, that permission was justified by the same policy and necessity; for it would have been much to the detri ment of our trade if American ships were on a sudden prohibited to carry such articles, while there were no British ships ready to convey them. In every point of view he could not help thinking that government had acted wisely in continuing the provisions of the bill; and he should therefore move, that the bill to indemnify them for so doing be now read a second time.

Lord Hawkesbury was happy to be able to assure the noble viscount and the house, that the subject of the military state of the Lord Grenville said, that after the senticountry had occupied the attention of mi ments he had already expressed respecting nisters from their very entrance into office. the subject of the breach of the law by isIt might not be proper at the present mo-suing the order of council, he could not, withment to enter into any explanation of the principle, or of the details of the measure they should have to propose, but the day was not distant when such an explanation should be amply given, and when reasons should be adduced for having deferred it till now. Indeed, on this very day it was expected that a notice would be given in another house, of the introduction of the ineasure to which the noble viscount had alluded.

out incurring the imputation of inconsisten-> cy, agree to the passing of this bill of indemnity. He fully concurred in that part of his noble friend's speech, in which he stated that no money could be levied in this coun try, without the consent and approbation' of parliament. His noble friend, however, went a little farther, and contended that though the law was broken by the crown, no higher duties were levied than it was authorized to collect. Now, it did ap pear, from a paper which had been laid on their lordships' table, not above three minutes ago, that a system more favourable to the commerce of America, had been adopted, than would have been, if the laws had been observed. His lordship here referred to the document, to shew that in various instances, higher and lower Earl duties had been levied, than the act for continuing the provisions of the former treaty authorized. The order of council remitted the duties upon some articles, 3 D

The Earl of Suffolk intimated the necessity of doing now much more than had as yet been attempted, towards the defence and security of the country. He had observed, with the greatest satisfaction, that on the part of the coast which he had lately visited, the system of the Martello towers had been considerably increased.

[AMERICAN INDEMNITY BILL] Bathurst moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the bill to indemnify ministers for continuing in force the proviVOL. IX.

/while it increased them upon others. It to unite the people. If we were to was not to be denied, that both of these meet dangers greater than any which had were contrary to law, and that they could ever threatened us, a divided people, what be only justified by the extreme necessity arms could we employ, what bulwarks raise, of the case. But what proof had ministers, or what armies create, adequate to repel either by documents or by their speeches, them? Much had been said upon this subafforded the house that any such necessity ject, but not, according to his way of con existed? Were they not, he would ask,sidering it, sufficient for its importance. aware that it would soon be necessary to The situation of Ireland could not be too renew the act for continuing the former often submitted to the deliberation of partreaty with America? Why, then, convin-liament, provided it were handled with judg ced as they must have been of that necessi-ment and moderation. He was sorry to ty, did they dissolve the last parliament? find that an idea had gone abroad, that Parliament, which had not the grounds of both the parliament and people of England the dissolution before it, was not bound to were pledged, that no farther concessions take into consideration the necessity which should be made to the Catholics of Ireland. might have existed for that measure. The He was sorry for it; for a more unwise, dissolution of 1784 was justified by the indiscreet, and mischievous declaration dispute which then arose between the two could not have been uttered. Such a mehouses of parliament. That was an unhap lancholy condition was not that of any counpy incident in the legislative proceedings try, most certainly not of any free govern of this country, which would always bear ment. The noble lord opposite to him out the sovereign in the exercise of his well knew, that the judgment of one parprerogative, and in appealing to the peo-liament often differed from that of another; ple. But did any such necessity exist for nay, even in the same parliament, there had the dissolution of the last parliament? The been more than one instance of such change convenience of ministers was not in itself of opinion. The appeal from the hasty desufficient grounds, and he had never heard cision of one meeting, to the prudence of any other, for that most rash, dangerous, another, bad not been unfrequently suc and imprudent measure, than which, in cessful. Was it, he would ask, right all these respects, a greater had never been to say to four millions of people, You must committed. It was not his custom to despair? And despair of what? why that dwell upon the dangers and difficulties of they, subjects of the British empire, were the country. It had never been his prac-not to be entitled to the privileges of its tice to aggravate calamity, or to utter in constitution. Was it possible that, under his place in parliament, any sentiments any circumstances, there could have been a which might lead to despondency or de-more improvident declaration? This was spair. On the contrary, he always wished his reason for wishing to impress once more to keep alive, not merely the principle of upon their lordships these considerations, hope, but the principles of resolution and because he was informed such language had steadiness, because it was these principles, been held. It was not under the impres and these alone, which could enable us to sion that the Fish Catholics were to be exbear up against the dangers with which we cluded from the pale of the constitution, might at any time be threatened. He that the great question of the Union was wished, therefore, before he sat down, to carried. No pledge respecting their addraw the attention of their lordships to mission to the same benefits with their felwhat had fallen from a noble viscount. He low subjects, had been either given or retrusted, that in the most critical period at quired. There were some persons, indeed, which this country ever arrived, its secu- who wished to make their participation in rity would not rest upon partial and tem- the common benefits of the constitution, porary measures. It was desirable that all one of the conditions of the Union. These the resources, strength, energy, and spi-intentions, however, were overruled, and rit of the country should be called forth. it was decided that every thing respecting The crisis was at length arrived, when it them, should be left to the discretion and would be necessary to call around us all the military energies of the empire. The first step upon so awful an emergency, which a - prudent government would take, would be to see whether any thing could be done

liberality of the united parliament. He would ask, why those who now appeared to be of a contrary opinion, did not then speak out? Why they did not maintain the exclusion of the Catholics, as

a fundamental principle of the constitution? | listened to her, soon discovered that the state Why they did not protest against destroy- which they renounced was far preferable to

found in Ireland, should ever the person who now wielded not only the force of France, but of the greater part of the continent, ever succeed in establishing his power in that part of the British empire. To prevent the possibility of any event of this dangerous and alarming nature, he called upon parliament to step forward with a lenient hand, to make a sacrifice of its prejudices, and to throw open the pale of the constitution to those who were interested in defending and upholding it. The question might be stayed off for a time, but it must be discussed sooner or later. He was aware that it might be objected to him, that those who predict danger, contribute not a little to create it; and that this was not

Any one, however, who conceived as he did, who saw not only danger but certain ruin and destruction in maintaining that system of policy he had condemned, would but ill discharge his duty if he hesitated to attack it,

and state, and letting the Pope into the country? That great minister, who framed the project of the Union, told his sovereign that the union could not be carried into effect, if that boon was not granted to the people of Ireland; and finding, that they were not likely to obtain it,he acted upon it in the same manly manner that he did upon all occasions. Where was this sentiment of exclusion to be found? Was it any where but in those libellous addresses upon the Catholics of Ireland? which he could not but consider ministers as deeply responsible for having advised his majesty to receive. If, in addition to dangers from abroad, we were to encounter divisions at home, the stoutest of us could scarcely hope that such an accumulation of peril could be success-a time to harass and obstruct government. fully resisted. If we resolved to encounter the question, we should do all that was to be done. As this was, perhaps, the last time that he might have occasion to address the house, during the present session, he felt it his duty to intreat their lordships to consider as nothing what had taken place; to meet the question with new feelings and ideas; to reflect that we were in the very crisis of our fate, upon the point, perhaps, of being assailed by the most formidable enemy that had ever menaced the existence of the government of any country. It was his misfortune to have been a most unsuccessful advocate in favour of the Catholics; but, if his recommendation could have any weight, he would say, that though this was the moment for parliament to grant all those immunities which they claimed, it was not the moment for them to ask for them. Under any of those acts which had been made for restraining that description of his majesty's Irish subjects, under the harsh and compulsory statutes which were repealed in 1793, under the sanguinary and dreadful code which preceded it, their condition, be was persuaded, would be far better than any they could hope to enjoy under the friendship or domination of France. The first question which was asked by that power, when it meant to overturn the govern ment of any country, was, What are the principles of disunion which prevail? To the excluded, to the dissatisfied, and to the suffering of every country, France threw out these lines and baits; but her professions and her conduct had never accorded with each other. The infatuated persons who

Lord Hawkesbury was not anxious to defend the bill of Indemnity on precedents only, but on the grounds of the necessity of the case out of which it grew. Nor would he deny that that necessity arose from the necessity of the dissolution of parliament; for, as often as that topic should again be forced into discussion, so often should he insist on the absolute necessity of that measure, The real authors of that necessity were the very persons who have since so repeatedly and so acrimoniously inveighed against it; for when his majesty, in the legitimate exercise of his prerogative, thought proper to make the late change in his councils, the noble lords opposite him made an appeal to parliament, and brought the question to issue between themselves and their sovereign. What then was left to his majesty, but to appeal to the sense of his people, while the events which made that appeal necessary were still fresh in their recollection? How else was his royal prerogative to be supported? This was the fair, obvious, simple ground upon which the late dissolution rested, and the result had amply proved how well his majesty understood the disposition of his people in making that appeal. For never was their sense more clearly, distinctly, and unequi vocally expressed. No means were left untried by the opposers of government, to

now could be attended with no practical effect, and when his own mind did not appear to be made up respecting any practical remedy. The moment called for universal unity of action, and under such circumstances as the present, he hoped to see all party spirit and animosity turn into zeal for the common defence.

procure the fullest possible attendance of them as prosperity and luxury when comtheir adherents in parliament, at the begin-pared with the promises and the boons by ning of the present session; yet the senti- which the enemy would endeavour to sement of the nation in favour of the prero-duce them? Then the representations made gative, was pronounced in the fullest house by the noble baron were unfair, of any dethat ever sat in deliberation, by the largest scription of men who had uniformly maniand most decided majority. Among their fested such a spirit of loyalty and palordships. it had met with the same loyal triotism. It was unfair surely to describe and triumphant support. Here then was their conduct and principles in a light that the necessity and the propriety of the disso- would justify him in calling them a divided lution proved at once in the most marked people. Respecting our internal policy, and forcible manner. He earnestly wished there might perhaps be difference of opi to let the question rest here, but it was im-nion; with regard to the threats and atpossible to pass over in silence the latter tempts of a foreign enemy, we should alpart of the noble baron's speech to which ways prove an united people, those who the former part served only as a stalking-possessed least, vying with those who poshorse. The deep regret he felt at some of sessed most. He must therefore again express the sentiments and expressions that fell his surprise and regret at the observations from the noble baron, he was at a loss how of the noble baron, the more so, as they to express; but he was sure they must have made nearly the same impression upon most of their lordships. He was ready to believe that the same feeling and sentiment pervaded every class and description of the community, and that they all were disposed to act with one heart and hand in support of the constitution against the attacks of the most formidable foe that they ever had Earl Spencer conceived the question to to contend with, and now made much be, whether the necessity which it was admore formidable by the influence of recent mitted had occasioned the breach of the events. Then, what could be the tendency law, was forced on his majesty's ministers, of the noble baron's observations? what the or had been forced on by them. The noeffect they were calculated to produce? ble lord opposite had said that his majesty But where was the practical good that having reason to be dissatisfied with his forcould result from them? Was it not well mer servants, had exercised his undoubted known how different were the opinions en- prerogative in choosing others in their tertained respecting the chief topic upon stead, and that the old servants of the which the noble baron had so widely, and, crown had thereupon come to parliament in his mind, so unnecessarily expatiated. with a statement of their case, thereby Neither could he be ignorant how very ge- making an appeal to parliament on the nerally the opinion of the country had been differences which had occurred between expressed upon that subject. Where, then, them and their sovereign, and that his was the utility of the recommendation which majesty had, in these circumstances, been the noble baron had so anxiously urged? Was advised to recur to the sense of the people. there in past experience, was there in any A more unfounded or a more erroneous prospect before us, the slightest ground for statement than this, the noble earl conconsidering us a divided people? Even in tended, had never been made, as must be defence of the Catholics, and in mere jus- well known to the noble lord (Hawkesbury) tice to that respectable body of men, he himself. The fact was, that after certain would ask the noble baron, when were their confidential communications had taken exertions wanted, if the threat of danger place between his majesty and his late serrequired them to put them forth? What- vants, in consequence of which a change ever the difference of opinion they might in his majesty's councils had taken place, have entertained upon the other points, the new servants of the crown, betraying were they ever backward, when the appear- the trust reposed in them, had given garance of a foreign enemy called for the bled and unjust representations in the zeal and activity of their services? What- newspapers, and otherwise, of the conever the deprivations under which they duct of their predecessors, and of the cirsuffer, had they not always. considered cumstances which had preceded their dis