Jekyll, J. Jervoise, C, J. Jones, Love P. Knox, hon. Thos. Mackdona d, James Miller, sir Thos. Moore, P. Nugent, sir G. North, Dudley O'Hara, C. Smith, G. the house would of course follow this precedent now. He thought it right at the same time to move, that the petitions presented yesterday, by persons stating Mr, Mills to be indebted to them, should be referred to the said committee.-An order was accordingly made to that effect. [STANDING ORDER FOR THE EXCLUSION OF STRANGERS.] Mr. Sheridan said, no person was more disposed to respect the general standing orders of the house than he was, and he was sure that when any member moved that any of these orders should be enforced, it was from the impulse of the best motives. The proceedings, however, which were sometimes adopted with respect to the order for the exclusion of strangers, seemed to him to require to be explained, and to be placed on inore satisfactory grounds. When it was considered that strangers were, by the standing order, never to be admitted, no construction of that standing order conld be interpreted into a right of commanding those to withdraw, who were to be presumed not to be present. The words of the standing order were not to admit strangers, and if any stranger intruded, the order provided that he should be taken into custody by the serjeant at arms. He did not think it right that a matter of such moment should be left in so undefined a state, and after what had happened yesterday, it became more necessary than ever to come to a fixed understanding upon it. If the public was not to be allowed to know what the state of the nation was, it was hard to say what it should be allowed to know. He therefore gave notice, that he meant on Friday to draw the attention of the house to this subject. Mr. Dennis Browne was extremely sorry if any thing had fallen from him contrary to the general sense of the house. The fact Tuesday, July 7. [MINUTES.] The Speaker called the attention of the house to a letter which he had received from Mr. Galway Mills, a member of the house; which he read from the chair, as follows:-" Temple Place, Black-was, that he had not moved that the gallery friars Road, July 6. Sir, I have to inform you, and through you to submit to the house, that I was in arrest with the Marshal of the King's Bench, upon mesne process, previous to my being returned to the present parliament for the borough of Midshal, and that I still continue under the same restraint. Under these circumstances, I beg to submit my case to the house, that it may afford me that redress, and adopt the proceedings, which the occasion will seem to it to require. I have the honour to be, &c." On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the proceedings upon Mr. Speed's case (Dec. 1795) were read. He supposed should be cleared, but on hearing things fall from the hon. gent. which he thought might be injurious, if suffered to go abroad, he thought it his duty to notice that there were strangers in the house; and it appeared, that when once such a deviation from the standing order was noticed, there was no discretion for him, or for the Speaker, or for the house; it must necessarily and immediately be enforced. The Speaker said, that as this matter was mentioned, he thought it his duty to state what was the present practice and usage of the house, and what, as being the usage, he thought it his duty to adopt and enforce, till it should be altered. Whether the house should lightly alter a usage so established, would be for its consideration. From the standing order, forbidding the admission of strangers, it was clear they could be in the house only by sufferance. For enforcing the exclusion, if necessary, the standing order directed that those who intruded themselves should be taken into the custody of the serjeant at arms. But this he looked upon only as a mode of getting rid of their presence if it should be an inconvenience, or if they should improperly come in, or persist in remaining. With respect to the obligation of enforcing the order, it was indispensable; if any member noticed the presence of strangers, he (the Speaker) had no choice, the house had no choice, they must be put forth. This was the ancient and established usage. If the house should now be disposed to alter it, it would do well to consider whether any new practice that might be substituted would accord equally well with its dignity or its convenience. Mr. Whitbread wished the ancient and established usage on this head to remain unaltered, for, although he deprecated, as much as his hon. friend, the exclusion of strangers, he was satisfied no new arrangement with respect to them would be equally conducive to the dignity and the convenience of the house. The right of exclusion had been seldom exercised, and in the course of his experience, he had never known it to be exercised with advantage. The exclusion of last night was particularly unwise. It seemed the hon. gent. thought something that he had said would have an injurious effect on the public mind, if suffered to go abroad. But the expression, whatever it was, that struck the hon. gent, as improper, did go abroad. If what he had said was capable of refutation, it ought to go abroad, accompanied by the refutation. If it could not be refuted, it ought to go abroad with the authority of incontrovertible truth. The member who enforced the right of exclusion ought to be sure that he exercised it with a sound discretion. [PLACES, PENSIONS, SINECURES, &c. HELD BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.] Lord Cochrane rose in pursuance of the notice he had given; in doing which, he was influenced by no other motive than that of an anxious wish to discharge a great public duty. If his motion was acceded to, the result would prove, whether there was any possibility of making those who had lived and grown rich upon the public money, feel for the extraordinary burdens under which the people laboured. The late plan of finance had proved that as much as could have been exacted had been drawn from the people, and that it was not possible to draw more: ingenuity had exhausted itself in devising new sources of taxation. The people knew all this. If he was asked, how he could so judge of the public sentiment, he in answer should appeal to the universal sentiment without doors; the variety of publications; the language held upon the hustings throughout the empire during the late election; the language made use of in the different advertisements from the successful candidates to their constituents, and if all these together did not enable a man to form a just estimate of public opinion, he did not know what could do so; nor was it to be forgotten, the different shameless notices that appeared in the different papers, concerning the sale of seats in a certain assembly. At the same time he wished it to be understood, that nothing was farther from his intention, than to complain of the allowances made to the efficient public officers; so far from thinking those allowances as extravagant, he thought them rather under than over what they should be. Revolutionary views might be imputed to him, as they were to others who wished for such investigations; but he was actuated by the purest motives, and he hoped for the unanimous concurrence of the house. It was proper to shew the people, that there was nothing in the character and habits of those who composed the house, that ought to be concealed. He therefore moved, "That a Committee be appointed to inquire into, and report to this house, an account of all Offices, Posts, Places, Sinecures, Pensions, Situations, Fees, Perquisites, and Emoluments of every description, paid out of, or arising from, the public revenues, or the fees of any Courts of Law, Equity, Admiralty, Ecclesiastical, or other Courts, held or en[joyed by, or in trust for, any Member of this House, his wife, or any of his descendants, for him, or either of them, in reversion of any present interest; with an account of the annual amount of such Office, Post, Place, Sinecure, Pension, Situation, Fees, Perquisites, and Emoluments, distinguishing whether the same arises from a certain salary, or from any average amount; that this inquiry do extend to the whole of his majesty's dominions, and that said com mittee be empowered to send for persons, papers, and records."—Mr. Cochrane Johnstone seconded the motion. Mr. Bankes thought the information desired by the noble lord desirable in many respects; but it would be neither practicable nor proper to pass the order in its present shape. There was no precedent of such an order on the Journals, though the house had frequently thought it right to interpose and check the excessive or improper distribution of salaries, pensions, and emoluments, derived from the public. So extensive a field of inquiry could hardly be reduced to any of the known rules adopted by committees of the house. The places held by members of parliament were besides known, and the pension list was either regularly laid on the table every session, or might be on the motion of any member. The committee in which he had the honour to preside (the Committee of Finance) had ordered the pension list to be laid before it, and would proceed to examine the circumstances connected with it in the next session. It was invidious and improper to convey to the public an insinuation, that members of parliament were influenced by considerations of private advantage for themselves or their dependents. He knew no ground, for casting at the present time an imputation never cast at any former time. For it was most essential, that at this critical period, the character of the house should not be degraded or depreciated. It was also unfair, as well as impolitic and unpatriotic, to depreciate the resources of the country, as the noble lord had done, by stating that we were on the verge of bankruptcy. Though sensible of the difficulties of the times, and of the relief arising from the judicious suspension of taxation, every man of judgment, who considered the situation of the country, would allow there were ample resources to meet the difficulties that we had to encounter. He did not see how the advertisements for the purchase and sale of seats, in a certain assembly, should be construed into an argument of the general corruption of members of parliament. He agreed with the noble lord, that the public servants, and particularly those of the higher classes, were rather under than overpaid. There was only one species of pensions, which it was necessary to inquire particularly into. Within the 3 last years the several public departments had got into the practice of granting pensions within theinselves, without complying with the provisions of Mr. Burke's act, that all pensions should be from the Exchequer only. Some of the public departments had withdrawn themselves even from the controul of the treasury in this respect. On the whole, however, anxious for enquiry and desirous to afford the pubic information, he could not consent to pass the noble lord's motion in its present shape. Mr. Curwen had hoped the noble lord's motion would have passed without a dissenting voice. He had hoped some measures would be taken to put an end to the disgraceful scenes that had formed the subject of such discreditable crimination and recrimination a few nights since. It was no objection that there was no precedent; the unprecedented state of the thing was a stronger ground for the investigation. When the exigency of the times was such as to require the exertion of every arm, the want of precedent was not to be pleaded in bar to the satisfaction due to the public mind. The Finance Committee had an extensive range of enquiry before it, and ought not to suffer a day to elapse without reporting something. That committee was not constituted exactly as he · thought it should be; as the change was made, he had no objection to the gentlemen introduced. The practice of granting pensions without the controul of the treasury or the exchequer, was a stronger ground of inquiry. When it was recorded on the journals, that seats in the house were bought and sold like bullocks in Smithfield market (Mr. Horne Tooke's petition), it was too much to find fault with the noble lord for adverting to newspaper advertisements. He complained that the power of the crown had greatly increased since it had been de clared to be already excessive; and as a friend to the democratic part of the constitution, he wished to see that excessive power reduced within proper bounds. The excess. of power rendered it insecure; and when the influence of corruption and weakness was combined with the operation of that excessive power, the danger was enhanced, and the mischief aggravated. While he said this, however, he did not go the length of the individual (sir F. Burdett) who had so rashly expressed himself in wishing to see the accursed leaves of the Red Book destroyed. He conceived that that person must not have been well acquainted with the nature of that book. It was one which differed materially from the Livre-Rouge in France; for it contained many offices of great utility to the country; also, he did not deny that it contained many abuses; and he wished to God that they were effectually removed. To refuse such an inquiry as this, would be to do the house more mischief than all the abuse of all the Corresponding Societies could do. Without shewing a disposition to satisfy the public in a case of this kind, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Perceval) would count in vain upon his majorities. Mr. Whitbread hoped, that as there was no doubt that an opinion prevailed as to the existence of much corruption in the house, the motion would be so framed, as to refute that opinion, or at least to shew in what degree and in what instance it was warranted. The object of the noble lord seemed to be, to place under one collected view, a mass of information now detached, and in many instances inaccessible. If the motion was referred to the committee of finance, with an instruction to inquire into and report upon the matter contained in it, the report would probably be of a most useful description. for no support, but from a strict performance of his duty. He should never seek popularity by false representations injurious to members of parliament, and tending to excite a distrust of the means of the country. He was unwilling that any information practically beneficial should be withheld. The committee would inquire into the nature and extent of the pensions and emoluments, and by whom they were held. Lord Ossulston was of opinion that it was most desirable the house and the country should be acquainted with the facts, whatever they might be. He thought that the noble lord's motion did not go far enough, and was afraid that the return to it would not be completely satisfactory to the public. Mr. J. Smith had extensive communications with his numerous constituents; and he was sorry to say, that their sentiments, and especially the sentiments of the middling class, were not favourable to the independence of parliament. An opinion certainly prevailed that the house of commons was not so independent as it ought to be. For his part, he had a high opinion of the character of parliament; and he was anxious that the motion might be agreed to, in order to prove how small was the number of the corrupt. He differed completely from an hon. gent. who had spoken against the increasing power of the crown. At the present awful moment, it would be most injudicious to diminish it. He was as adverse. to the diminution of the power of the crown at that moment, as he was to the disunion of the people by a religious cry. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that no opposition would be made to the motion, if the noble mover would assent to a modification, such as was suggested from the other side. It was his wish to give all possible information. To call for a return of all those connected with members of parliainent would be to lead to an endless list of persons, from which no practical result could be derived. Officers in the army and navy, for instance, and on the half pay would be included. If the matter was referred to the com mittee, it might inquire not only into pensions Mr. Lethbridge complimented the fairness held by members of parliament, which would with which the chancellor of the exchequer be distinguished by the names, but into all had met this question. He was glad that pensions, by whomsoever held. The lists of such a motion had been brought forward, pensions and places might be had from the because he knew many populous districts in different departments; but, if the inquiry his county who were open-mouthed about of the committee was deemed satisfactory, pensions and places; this motion, if adopthe saw no objection to it. He thought the ed, would tend to undeceive them, by shew.motion ought to be extended in some re-ing, that they did not extend to that degree spects, and narrowed in others, in order to give it a useful and not unnecessary range. Mr. Littleton defended the noble lord's The crown being allowed the power of motion, against the objections of the hon. granting pensions to a certain amount, it gent., who had said that there was no precewould be competent to inquire before the dent for such a step. Were not the times report of the committee, as well as after, unprecedented? It was worth while at a whether the pension list ought to be re-period like the present, when the minds of duced. The house having fixed the amount the people were so full of suspicions, at least to be granted, he questioned whether it would to endeavour to shew that they were without be right to canvass the propriety of every foundation. individual grant. He did not know whether the course he proposed fell in with the views of the hon. gentlemen opposite. He looked as to endanger the safety of the country. Sir J. Sebright would support the noble lord's motion, or something resembling it, because the public entertained doubts on this subject, which an investigation of this sort | grant pensions to persons after holding offiwas best calculated to remove, He disclaimed all connection with party, although he entertained a high respect for his majesty's present ministers. Mr. W. Smith thought that the adoption of this motion would tend to strengthen the constitutional power of the crown, and he agreed that this was not the time to weaken that constitutional power. At the same time, he did not so well approve of the mode proposed by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, nor did he approve of referring this motion to the Committee of Finance, who had already enough upon their hands; considerable time must therefore elapse before any return could be made by them, or else other things which they had in hand must be neglected. He wished a committee to be appointed for the express purpose of carrying into execution the object of this motion. He was not sanguine enough to suppose that any curtailing of pen sions would cause any diminution of the public burdens, as they are felt by individuals; for when 50 millions a-year were required to be raised, even supposing £50,000 a year could possibly be diminished from the pension list, no remedy could thereby be afforded to the burdens of the individual; but the public, if encouraged to hope for this, would reap the advantage of those schemes for the national advantage, so necessary in the present posture of affairs. He had the authority of Judge Blackstone to say, that it was the duty of the house to inquire into the amount and circumstances of the pensions granted by the crown; and he considered that it was also competent to the house to inquire into the specific grants, as well as the number of sinecure places and reversions. He denied the position, that the man who had a reversionary interest in a place, had a sort of freehold in which the public had no interest. If there existed certain patent places which originally were for small sums, but had now grown into enormous ones, and these held by persons who could have no claim to such places, in his opinion the continuance of them formed a proper subject of inquiry by parliament. If the salary of a person who held an official situation under government was not sufficient, he would willingly increase it, for he thought there should be no monopoly of important offices to a wealthy aristocracy, otherwise no man could accept an office, who had not a handsome fortune of his own. He thought it was a mischievous practice to ces for a short time. It was no good plea for the person retiring on such pension to say, that he had been induced to take the office against his will, and had abandoned more lucrative situations. Mr. Wilberforce, after adverting to the integrity and independence of his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes), expressed his regret, that be should have said any thing on the present occasion, which might have the appearance of a desire to prevent inquiry. It was highly gratifying to him, and must be so to the noble lord (Cochrane), to see that his motion was received with general approbation, and that there appeared to be scarcely any difference, except as to the form. He thought the mode proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer the most proper, but differed from him as to the grants by the crown, which might be examined, though not malignantly nor invidiously. With regard to the salaries of public men, he thought that here, too, a prudent parsimony ought to prevail, for it ought to be considered that they were paid not only by their salaries, but by the distinction they enjoyed, and the opportunity of transmitting their names to posterity as faithful and able servants of the public. Yet he thought that they ought to have pensions upon retirement,upon the same principle, that officers in the army and navy had half-pay'. He was convinced that nothing was better calculated than openness and fair dealing, 'to make public men and parliament stand well in public opinion, and he was glad that this motion had been made, as it would tend to secure that object. But there was a danger of hunting too eagerly after popularity. The circumstance that rendered popular gover ments more capable of great exertions than others, was the affection of the people to their institutions, and their consequent willingness to bear the public burthens. It was, therefore, of the last importance that the house of commons should stand well with the considerate part of the community, particularly with the middle classes, which formed the most valuable part of it. If an idea had gone forth that there was a great deal of corruption in that house, it was desirable that the public should be satisfied that there was a great deal more independence in it than was imagined. This motion came rather suddenly, and he was desirous to adjourn the debate for two or three days, to consider about the most proper mode of attaining the object in view (a cry of no, no!). He doubted whether it ought to be referred |