contract price, or cost price, of a new ship of the same size and like

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you a question at that point. You were speaking of the methods you employ before you actually authorize the expenditure of the money. What is the process for arriving at your estimate?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. These estimates are arrived at by complying with the law which provides that no part of this sum shall be applied to the repair of any ship when the estimated cost of such repairs, to be appraised by a competent board of naval officers, shall exceed, in the case of any wooden ship, 10 per cent, or in the case of any other ship, 20 per cent of the estimated cost of a new ship of like material, or which in any case shall amount to more than $200,000.

The CHAIRMAN. That is for the actual expenditure of the money? Capt. WINTERHALTER. No; that is for these present estimates. The present estimates that we submit were prepared by a board consisting of representatives of different bureaus; and as far as we are able to determine in advance and at this time, these amounts will be required for the contemplated overhaul of the various vessels.

The CHAIRMAN. At that point, does this board actually inspect these specific vessels, or do you simply state the age of the vessel, its class and character, and the work which it has heretofore done, and its treatment, and estimate from that that a certain amount of work will probably be necessary to repair, or is an actual physical inspection made of the ship itself?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Not at this time. For instance, in the case of the two colliers Justin and Nanshan; one is on the Pacific coast and one in Asiatic waters; it would be impossible to inspect them. by this board. We are complying with the letter of the law and the figures submitted illustrate its working. It is impossible to arrive at closer estimates until the actual condition of the vessels is reported when they come up for overhaul.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I understood, and it was stated by another officer, one of the bureau chiefs, that that was the practice. Capt. WINTERHALTER. These estimates do not bear the same authority that estimates made later and before the work is undertaken will bear. Knowing present conditions, we have to anticipate and form an approximate idea of what these vessels will require at the time of their overhaul. It is to comply with the provisions of the law and to avoid delay that the estimates that certain battleships, for

instance, like the North Dakota and Minnesota, will cost for their repairs $250,000, or will exceed the limit of $200,000, or, in case of vessels costing less than $1,000,000, will exceed 20 per cent of the appraised value of a like ship of similar material and construction at the present date, are submitted.

The CHAIRMAN. Also, these estimates are made for work that must be done after a year or more?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes. They have to be prepared considerably in advance, to comply with the requirements of Congress. The North Dakota and Minnesota will come to the overhauling period at the same time. The department's letter containing these estimates was submitted in November, 1912; the North Dakota and Minnesota will be overhauled during the period October-December, 1913. Mr. Foss. Where are those ships now?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. At Guantanamo, with the fleet. We have a three months' overhaul period for every battleship every 15 months, and it is likely at any time that the expenditures for repairs incident to service will amount to $200,000. In the case of the Vermont last summer we asked for $250,000 in December, 1911, and finally were obliged to ask for authority to expend $300,000 before the passage of the naval appropriation bill. Of course it is simply to get the authority to expend an amount in excess of the limit. It does not increase the appropriation, and this particular legislation will provide a limit of expenditure beyond which we can not go, on certain vessels

named.

Mr. Foss. Now, take, for instance, the case of the North Dakota. Here is the estimate of the Bureau of Ordnance, $50,000; Bureau of Construction and Repair, $125,000; Bureau of Steam Engineering, $75,000, making, in all, $250,000. Was that estimate recommended by the board of inspection?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. No, sir; not in its present shape. Since I have come to be aid for material I have advised the Secretary to require, in connection with the repair period, this provision:

That during the docking period immediately preceding the overhauling of the ship she shall be inspected by the board of inspection and survey for ships to ascertain the extent of all the repairs and alterations that they will recommend.

Mr. Foss. That is by the officers who go on board ships?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes; they actually see every part of the ship, and they have to submit a statement of what items are required and the reasons.

Mr. Foss. But the first board does not have an opportunity to see the ship?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. No, sir; the first board on which these particular estimates are founded has no opportunity to see the ships. These estimates are based on records filed in the department and the bureaus with regard to their age and condition. I can illustrate that by this tug Chickasaw. She was built in 1888 by Dialogue, of Camden, and afterwards sold to the Government in 1898, and naturally the committee would inquire about the expenditure on her, in view of her age, as soon as report was made.

Mr. Foss. Are those estimates the same as those recommended by the board of actual survey?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. They have not had a chance at this yet.

Mr. Foss. They have not had a chance at this?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. No, sir; they will have at the next docking period. These ships, prior to their overhaul, will go into dry dock, and during that docking period the board of inspection and survey for ships will actually go on board each of these ships at the navy yards and will make a material inspection of them and render their report. A report will not only come to the department from that board but also from the yard board of survey and estimate that prepares in detail the estimated cost of these repairs. So that is subject to two scrutinies, and then those reports go to the bureaus involved and will be subjected to another scrutiny there, and finally from the reports and scrutinies of the bureaus and their recommendations the department will form its own conclusions as to the necessity and desirability of the repairs and the total amount of authorized expenditures.

Mr. Foss. This method of these different boards has been in operation for a number of years in the Navy Department?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes; but their methods and procedure have been systematized.

Mr. Foss. As I understand it, now, the only change is that the aid passes upon the recommendation?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. The method of inspection and determination of costs, as has been described, is new and originated with the present aid for material. It provides for an inspection of the ships during their docking period when all requests for repairs and alterations are acted upon by the board of survey, together with coincident action by the board of estimate. In cases of major importance the matter is considered by all the aids and their joint recommendation is made to the Secretary.

Mr. Foss. Does the aid usually accept the recommendations of the board?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. When the cases of the North Dakota and Minnesota came up it might be the board would recommend $300,000 worth of repairs. It would be absolutely necessary for the aid to recommend to the Secretary that it be cut down below the statutory limit by elimination of certain work, provided it can be done reasonably. If the Secretary decides it could not be done that is, that no work could be eliminated or deferred-we would have to ask Congress to extend that limit to $300,000. Now, if you will allow me, I will give you the estimate of what the repairs on the North Dakota will cost. "Installation of combined fire-control and conning tower," as recommended by the various bureaus, by the commander in chief, Atlantic Fleet, and as approved by the department for all battleships subsequent to the Georgia class, $90,000. This combined tower is intended to replace the present inadequate type of conning tower and is designed to house and protect the captain, navigating and fire-control party of the ship, together with their instruments of control, and to place this personnel in immediate contact with the captain and behind armor. Similar towers have already been installed on the Virginia, Idaho, and Vermont, and are at present being installed on the Kansas, New Hampshire, and Delaware. In regard to work of this nature, it is very easy to get an exact estimate, and $90,000 is based upon the cost of similar towers that have been in

stalled in other ships. Therefore, that can be accepted as an exact estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. That is largely duplicate work?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes; and we try, in order to avoid the trouble we had last summer on the Vermont, to order the armor and material for these conning towers ahead and have them all ready for installation. The completion of this conning tower rendered certain changes in the bridge arrangement necessary, and those changes will cost $10,000.

"Structural work required in connection with the installation of tube shell hoists for turret guns"; this type of hoist having been developed by the Bureau of Ordnance in response to the demands of service requirements and having been recommended by boards convened in the fleet and approved by the commander in chief, $30,000. Then the "Miscellaneous repairs to structural work" is comprehensive, and is purposely so made, in order that it will include all structural work that will require repair or renewal at the time of overhaul. It is estimated that this will cost $30,000.

"Overhauling auxiliaries" is also comprehensive and is worded so as to include the thorough overhaul, repair, and renewal of auxiliary machinery, $15,000.

"General overhauling of machinery" is to cover the overhaul, repair, and renewal of the main engines, boilers, and machinery in the engineering department of this vessel. Detailed estimates are impracticable until engines and parts are actually dismantled at the time scheduled for inspection and overhaul. The amount for this is $50,000.

Retubing condensers." required and provided for in view of the present condition of tubes and anticipated further deterioration due to age and service. $25.000.

Numerous minor items of work are also considered and included in the above estimates. Now that I have gone into detail on the North Dakota, I will not do it for the Minnesota, as the Minnesota details are generally applicable in the same way. Those estimates come from the bureaus to the department and come before this board in the department.

The CHAIRMAN. At that point-I understand Mr. Foss wants, and I would like to have there does the department accept the recommendation of the board itself, or do you review those recommendations and exercise your judgment upon them to cut them down if you think they should be cut down?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes, sir; always. In making my recommendation to the Secretary I review them all to see whether they have included anything in them that should not be there or whether anything required by existing practice or policy has been omitted.

The CHAIRMAN. And you exercise the right to cut off anything that you see fit to?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. No; not as you state it. I submit a memo randum to the Secretary which goes into detail on this subject, and make my recommendations, and then the Secretary either rejects or approves my recommendations. It is simply routine work. There are from 50 to 100 different recommendations made to the Secretary by me every day. They are made in the shape of letters or indorse

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ments, which he signs or not as he determines; and if he does not approve of any letter he may discard it and order a different draft. Mr. Foss. It seems to me that you have to take the judgment, largely, of the men who have seen the ships and made the survey.

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes; and that is what we do finally. That comes under another division, the division of inspections. They are doing one of the most important works in the Navy right now, in the work of the board of inspection for ships. They make all of these inspections of battleships for us, and during the docking periods in 15 days inspect eight battleships at four different yards. Mr. Foss. Do they make a written report?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Yes, in the greatest detail. If these reports are not satisfactory, we make the necessary investigations. Of course, on the Pacific coast it is different. Now, here was the case of the Vicksburg the other day, which came up from the south and had dropped a propeller blade, and when they came to inspect her, she was found to be otherwise below par. When the board of inspection's report came in, it indicated, according to their estimates, $53,000 worth of repairs, but their report was not drawn up in sufficient detail so that the bureaus of the material division could pass upon it. We referred it then to the board of inspection here for their estimates of the same kind of work that we wanted to have done on the Vicksburg-instead of sending officers out there-and they reported back to us that these repairs would exceed $60,000, which was the statutory limit on a vessel of the Vicksburg's class. Upon a presentation of all the details by the aid for material to the council of aids the Vicksburg was placed in reserve by the Secretary, approving our recommendation. We found her incapacitated for active service and her military value not warranting the extensive repairs recommended. There have many parallel cases. The Vicksburg case came in within the last few days, and I think it is illuminating. Instead of deciding to repair the Vicksburg and ask Congress to extend her statutory limit, we decided that her age and condition was such, from the inspection reports from the Pacific coast, and their review by the board of inspection on this coast, that we would spend no more money on her. That plan, of course, applies to all ships under similar cir

cumstances.

The CHAIRMAN. When you determine not to spend any more money on her, do you put her in reserve to use around your yards or the local work?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. If she is beyond useful repair, we are required to appraise and recommend her for sale. That is the law. But in the case of the Vicksburg, she will be available in Puget Sound for the use of the Naval Militia. She will be withdrawn from active service and assigned to the Naval Militia, where she will be quite useful. For some purposes, where they do not do any deep-sea cruising, but simply drilling, she will be all right. She is in a condition to permit of her employment in inland waters.

Mr. BUTLER. Won't the Naval Militia do any cruising?

Capt. WINTERHALTER. Some of them will and do. It is intended. to give them all a chance.

Mr. BUTLER. I should certainly hope they would do some cruising if they are going to be a part of the Navy.