Mr. MCKENZIE. I want to explain that. I am not a diplomat; I am a frontiersman; and I do not always say exactly the right words, and I do not convey my thought, perhaps, as I want to. We have no complaint to make against Congress. So far as I am concerned, I have always found Congress responsive. But down here the Department of the Interior has annulled all these things, and if you pass a law for us here in Congress they might annul it and it does not have any effect; they do not pay any respect to it.

Now, we want to stop that thing. Why, they have got it shifted around to do exactly what Congress would not have done for them. They would pass a bill to allow them to go up there, the Bureau of Mines to go up there, and so they took advantage of this to get control of that property and to take possession of it. And on these Cunningham claims-as much as has been said about them-people will some time find that there has been a great wrong done to Clarence Cunningham, and they will find this, that Mr. Fisher, of the Interior Department, before he had made that remarkable decision of his about the Cunningham claims, had these men on the road out there to take possession of that ground under this scheme here, to beat that man out; fixed it so that he could not possibly get a chance to go into court and try his rights.

Now, if you are going to spend any more money out there, why not give it to those poor fellows that have been up there all these years? Some of them are hungry; they would be glad to furnish that coal and get it down there for you for $6 a ton.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, let me put a practical question to you: Who will undertake to make a contract with the Government to furnish them coal delivered, and give a responsible bond, to furnish coal to the Government at $6 a ton delivered on salt water at Controller Bay? Mr. MCKENZIE. Well, I think that

The CHAIRMAN. Now, can you give me a practical proposition on that?

Mr. BUTLER. How much can he supply?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Well, if you will agree that the Land Department will not interfere with the operations up there, so as to give him a chance to mine, that will be a very easy matter.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is the great problem in the equation, a great factor in it.

Mr. MCKENZIE. I believe Mr. McDonald would be glad to furnish the Government all the coal they want at $6 a ton.

Mr. BUTLER. Excuse me; I was late and did not hear. Does Mr. McDonald have such title that he can furnish this coal?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No; nobody has got title yet.

Mr. HOBSON. May I ask a question at this point? Would that coal. be taken from localities that would be a fair sample of the coal tested under the approval of the Navy Department?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir. Now, to show you the difference in coal. Some years ago Mr. McDonald sent some 20 tons of coal, gave it to the Navy Department, and sent it to Bremerton, in Washington, mined the coal and sent it down there, and the cost of sending it was $20 a ton, and they tested it on the battleship Nebraska, along with Pocahontas coal.

Mr. HOBSON. But would he undertake to deliver 1.000 tons of coal at Bremerton at $20 a ton?

Mr. TALBOTT. They tried it on the Nebraska, you say?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I will put in the record an extract of that report as handed me by Mr. McKenzie. I have it on my table.

Mr. MCKENZIE. They found that the McDonald coal was equal in efficiency-there was 15 tons as against 18 tons.

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, you will recall, Mr. McKenzie, that that report stated that there was not enough of that coal to give it a fair test? Mr. MCKENZIE. Where?

Mr. ROBERTS. On the battleship Nebraska.

Mr. MCKENZIE. That little bunch?

Mr. ROBERTS. I understand, so far as tested, that it seemed to be all right, but there was not enough to give it a thorough test.

Mr. HOBSON. Do I understand that the Government could get coal, properly tested, delivered at Bremerton at $20 a ton?

The CHAIRMAN. Not at Bremerton, at Controller Bay.

Mr. HOBSON. Why not have it delivered at Bremerton, if they can do it?

The CHAIRMAN. He did not say he could at $6 a ton.

Mr. HOBSON. No; I say delivered at Bremerton at $20 a ton. As I understand now, our coal averages $60 or $70 a ton.

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes; more than that; it will probably average $100 a ton.

Mr. HOBSON. If he can do that it will be a great saving to the Navy. Mr. MCKENZIE. When they get it, Captain, at salt water, it will be considerably over $100 a ton.

Mr. ROBERTS. But the coal delivered at Bremerton will be from his particular mine.

Mr. HOBSON. I will put in my question; maybe he can arrange to have it taken from the different outcroppings?

Mr. ROBERTS. It would not be from all the coal fields that have any outcroppings in that region. Would you undertake to furnish the Navy Department with a thousand tons of coal, at $20 a ton, to be delivered at Bremerton, that coal to be samples from all the outcroppings in the whole Alaskan coal region?

Mr. McDONALD. Certainly not.

Mr. HOBSON. Mr. Roberts, you do not mean to say that the Navy Department samples all the outcroppings in Alaska?

Mr. ROBERTS. The very point of this Government expedition is to find out how much coal there is.

Mr. HOBSON. They can do that all right, but the coal they are delivering comes from certain points; from old mines.

Mr. ROBERTS. And they are not all from one mine; but all in that field.

Mr. HOBSON. Now, whenever the Navy Department does-the only question whether Mr. McDonald or anybody else would furnish the Navy Department coal is whether they could deliver the right quality of coal cheaper than is now being done.

Mr. ROBERTS. He says he can not do it at $20 per ton.

Mr. HOBSON. Nobody can do it. Ask him a question that will give him a chance to give a reasonable answer.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is just what I asked him.

Mr. HOBSON. Ask him if the Government expedition undertakes to sample all the outcroppings of Alaska. The truth is, a sample of

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coal of a particular kind will sometimes represent a whole area. Nobody in the world could ever do it. You asked him a ridiculous question.

Mr. ROBERTS. No. If you will look at this map you will see that it is not as ridiculous as it seems to you.

Mr. HOBSON. I do not want to see the question committed on the arguments Mr. Roberts is making.

The CHAIRMAN. This is an argument that we can take up later on. Let us proceed with the hearing.

Mr. MCKENZIE. If they would get coal from Mr. McDonald's mine it would be a fair showing of the steam coal of that entire region. Now, those different fields are practically all one field. Sometimes they are called the Controller Bay field, sometimes the Bering River; but it is all one coal field.

Mr. GREGG. Is all the coal in that whole field of one kind?

Mr. MCKENZIE. There are two kinds-soft coal, or steam coal, and anthracite coal.

Mr. GREGG. Is the soft coal all pretty nearly of the same quality? Mr. MCKENZIE. All is pretty nearly of the same quality.

Mr. GREGG. How about the anthracite? Is the anthracite all about the same thing?

Mr. MCKENZIE. About the same thing; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. According to this map there are three kinds of coal in this proposition that we have under consideration-the Cunningham fields, and the fields where Mr. McDonald is located. There is a coking coal and a soft, smokeless but noncoking coal, and anthracite coal, all in this comparatively limited area, where the naval expedition has been surveying and looking over.

Mr. GREGG. As I understand, that is the soil surveys; the Navy Department has nothing to do with that?

Mr. BOYD. Geological survey.

Mr. ROBERTS. This gives the location of the coal sections and the coal samples.

Mr. GREGG. It is being put before us that this whole thing was done for $75,000 by the Navy Department?

Mr. ROBERTS. This shows where the Navy Department went.

Mr. GREGG. I understand it has already been explored by the Geological Survey?

Mr. ROBERTS. But the coal has not been taken out and samples gotten.

Mr. GREGG. What do you mean by exploring a field if you have not got samples?

Mr. ROBERTS. You can find outcroppings in one place, but when you do that you do not know how much coal there is in the ground. That is another matter.

Mr. GREGG. What did they make a survey for if they did not survey that whole thing?

Mr. TALBOTT. I understand that $75,000 was appropriated to ascertain if the coal was there in sufficient quantities.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is, a part of it, and so they have got to go over this whole area. Perhaps I used the wrong word when I said exploring," but they were to ascertain whether there was enough coal in these places.

Mr. HOBSON. Mr. Chairman, could we get the gentlemen to make statements, first on one side and then on the other?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly; I think we will let them make statements, and the members should not interrupt them so much.

Mr. TALBOTT. That is what we are here for, to hear them. We can hear ourselves at any time.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, Mr. McKenzie, will you proceed, please?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Speaking about this coal, the United States Government has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the geological department to find out all about this coal, and it has been done under one of the most competent men, and one of the squarest men in the Government service. That is Dr. Brooks; he has done his work well, and Mr. Martin; and all of this question has been printed in books. And Dr. Martin has crawled all over that field, every mountain and hill.

Mr. GEORGE. Now, is there any use of us surveying that field to find out what coal is there, or how much coal is there, or has that already been done?

Mr. MCKENZIE. That has already been done in a manner satisfactory to anybody that knows anything about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, let me bring up a practical question right there. What will you undertake to deliver coal for to the Government at Controller Bay, at the Bering Sea

Mr. MCKENZIE (interposing). Bering Lake.

The CHAIRMAN. Bering Lake region for?

Mr. MCKENZIE. How much coal?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, any amount that we might want; in large amounts?

Mr. MCKENZIE. In large amounts? Well, if we can get a contract there for a large amount and go all the year around, I would be willing to say right now, off hand, that I would like to have a contract there to furnish it at salt water for about $4 a ton; $4 to $5. The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, what will you undertake to deliver coal from the Mattanooska fields for?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Now, that is a proposition that I am not so familiar with, but I will tell you Mr. Chairman, if I want to get some coal, which, as I imagine, is what you are after, is to get enough coal to make a test on a gunboat

The CHAIRMAN. On a ship.

Mr. MCKENZIE. On a ship, why I would go right straight up to Seward. There are lots of fellows there that have been in the coal fields that have nothing to do now and are around there on the ragged edge.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not talking about those other questions. I want to know what you can furnish the coal for?

Mr. MCKENZIE. I say these men can give you estimates, I can not do it. They will be glad to do it, and I will guarantee that you will get more for your money, 20 to 1, than you will under this other system. They will go up to Cooks Inlet, in the summer time a boat goes in there, within 35 miles of it, and they will get the coal. In the first place, I am not a coal miner; but Mr. McDonald is.

The CHAIRMAN. You are here representing those people; and I want to know what the practical question is to the Government in this matter; where we can get the coal and what it will cost us?

Mr. BUTLER. That is what I would like to know; how much coal we can get and its cost and its quality?

Mr. MCKENZIE. That is what I would like to give you.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this other question. Is not this whole opposition founded on the underlying principle that they want to shut off this investigation for fear that the Government will make a reservation of a large quantity of that coal land there, and set it apart for naval purposes?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No; we are all in favor of that Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Our delegate here, Judge Wickersham, has advocated that very thing; and all Alaskans will favor that."

The CHAIRMAN. They favor setting apart lands for naval purposes?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the objection then, to the Government developing?

Mr. MCKENZIE. There is no objection on our part.

The CHAIRMAN. I understood you to say that they were objecting to the Government developing this coal land.

Mr. MCKENZIE. We have no objection at all to the Navy Department going in there; but we do not want these men down here at that Land Office, in the Interior Department, to go up and rap us.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that does not come out of our $75,000? Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes. They are the fellows that squandered the money, the Interior Department. They are the ones that wasted this money. Now, if the Navy Department, undoubtedly, if they had been left to run it themselves, without the aid of the Bureau of Mines, they would have simply gone up there and got the coal cheap; and you would have had your test, for about $25,000 maybe.

Mr. GREGG. Now, you stated a while ago that this field had all been surveyed?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. And that the Government had spent thousands of dollars and had competent men up there?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. Now, with this expedition under the $75,000 appropriation, whom did they send up there?

Mr. ROBERTS. Do you know who went into it?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Dr. Holmes, who is incompetent.

Mr. ROBERTS. Do you know whether he went himself?

Mr. MCKENZIE. That is what I understand.

Mr. BUTLER. You said they were not competent. Then you ought to know who went up there?

Mr. MCKENZIE. I only know from what the miners up there have said; they have passed comments on it. I am simply versing what they said.

Mr. ROBERTS. Now, let me ask you this: It is stated that miners were taken from Seattle to do the mining to get out this coal? Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.