will land it, or to the mouth of Clear Lake. In that case they would have to bring the coal down in canoes, very small boats, down to Bering Lake, and then put it on larger barges and take it down to the bay.

Mr. McDonald offered a few years ago to furnish the Navy with 2,000 tons of that coal, delivered on salt water, at $6 a ton. Now, this coal is of the same character as the coal that these gentlemen are getting, and we feel that for Congress to vote $75,000-it is now proposed to appropriate another $75,000-would be a waste of money. This money will be charged up against Alaska; and we come down here and we want a great many things that we need, to make roads, and a great many other improvements; but by and by they will pull this list on us, and say, "You have had all this money already," and perhaps we can not get some other things that we really need.

But there is still another reason. Now, the Government has pursued, as perhaps you all know, a very peculiar policy toward Alaskans. And if I am permitted to cite you just one case I do not know whether this is going out of the line of talk that I should make or not, but I would like the privilege of citing just one case up there. I think I can give you the reasons why we are opposed to this system that is now in operation up there. I want to cite the case of Mr. McDonald. He was engaged in the coal business in Montana and some years ago sold out his property there, I believe, cleaning up some $50,000, and he took that money to Alaska and put it in a coal mine which he bought up there. And his friends-and he needed more capital than he had to develop this mine, and so he called on his friends in Montana, and they put up money with him, until all told they have got about $165,000 invested in this mine; they opened up the mine and paid the Government for it, had their final receipt for it, and then were prevented from working the mine. Mr. ROBERTS. How were they prevented?

Mr. MCKENZIE. By the Interior Department.

Mr. ROBERTS. They wanted to cultivate the ground?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No; they did not. They just said he could not work it. So he came down and saw the Commissioner of the General Land Office, the Land Department, and they told him to see the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice told them that Mr. McDonald had a perfect right to work that land.

Mr. ROBERTS. Where is that located?

Mr. MCKENZIE. On the Bering coast.

Mr. ROBERTS. Near the Cunningham claims?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No; Mr. Cunningham's claims are a few miles away from that. It is in the same field, and practically the same coal. Now, the commissioner said to them, "I do not want you to work this land, because if you do the department will be criticized. There is lots of talk about the Alaska coal, and the department will be criticized." He says, "In a few months I think we can get straightened up anyway so you can go to work."

Now, Mr. McDonald and his friends listened to the department, and after getting that mine ready for operation and spending $165,000, and having secured a contract by which he could sell 2,000 tons, or perhaps more, a month, they let his mine lie there idle from that day to this.

Mr. ROBERTS. Is it the Navy contract that you speak of now? Mr. MCKENZIE. No; it was a railroad contract. But at this time, just before they closed out, he saw Mr. Cole

Mr. ROBERTS (interposing). Of the Navy Department?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes; of the Navy Department.

Mr. McDONALD. It was Admiral Cowles?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Admiral Cowles; yes. He wanted a couple of thousand tons, and asked Mr. McDonald what he would take for it, and he said he would deliver it on salt water for $6 a ton; and the admiral told him he would take the coal and send a ship up there for it. And then they shut down on him, and he could not furnish the coal.

The CHAIRMAN. Not the Navy Department; they did not shut down on him?

Mr. MCKENZIE. No. We have never had any trouble whatever with the Navy or the Army. It is this Land Department that has been our rack and ruin. So Mr. McDonald had to leave his coab; and he had to leave Alaska and go down to Seattle and work for a brickyard to make bread and butter for his family.

A short time ago the other coal claimants up there thought that perhaps it would help the cause to have somebody come down here and explain to Congress the conditions; and they chipped in $25. apiece; and some of those coal claimants are paying that in installments for Mr. McDonald to come down here. They raised about $1,000, and told him to come down here and stay as long as the money lasted, and try to get things straightened out.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that there are other people with coal claims who have also been prohibited by the department from developing them?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes, sir. There never has been a coal claim patented. The other day, just a few days ago, there has been so much criticism about this situation, that one little claim of 65 acres was patented; it has taken that man 12 years to get that land. He lived on the land for 12 years, and had two children born there, and he made it his home for years, and until they shut down on it, and he had to go fishing for a living.

Mr. ROBERTS. I do not want to interrupt you too much, but I want to get in my mind the locations of Mr. McDonald and the other claimants-the relative location of their claims with the so-called Cunningham claims. What I am driving at is, is Mr. McDonald's claim and those others that have been prohibited practically a part of that Cunningham field?

Mr. MCKENZIE. In the same field; yes; but not connected in any way with the Cunningham group.

Mr. ROBERTS. Not connected with the Cunningham group; but it is part of that whole field, which some people want the Government to reserve for Government use?

Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes; of course some of our radical conservation friends would like to reserve the entire coal fields of Alaska.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, just at this point here I want to understand you. As I understood the other day, this rough map [indicating] will indicate this; Mr. Cunningham staked out the mine that he bought there?

Mr. MCKENZIE. It was Mr. McDonald.

85873-13-45

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McDonald, the man that he bought from staked out a claim, as shown by the diagram here [indicating]? Mr. MCKENZIE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But when they came to describe it and take title papers for it, they took title for this tract of land [indicating]? Mr. MCKENZIE. Out into a lake.

The CHAIRMAN. Over here [indicating] he had gone out into a lake. In other words, this line here [indicating], he staked out his land on this side of the line and then when he took his title papers and described it, he described it on the other and got out into the lake?

Mr. McDONALD. Permit me just a moment, Mr. Chairman. In this claim, the claim was originally staked on the land just as shown, and each corner was marked southwest, northwest, etc. But when the locator wrote out his notice he described it as running north of this line only, then as running up into the water. His description was wrong on the notice, but his stakes were right. When the surveys were made they staked it right on the land, and it is there to-day, but by reason of this discrepancy having occurred between the land as described on the location and the land as actually surveyed, why, of course, that caused the conflict. The ordinary course has always been for the department to call the attention of the applicant for lands to such an error and give him sufficient time to make the explanation and corrections, to prove that the land that he is applying for is the land as originally staked, and not the land described."

Mr. ROBERTS. Now, Mr. McDonald, this error of location was made by somebody before you had anything to do with the proceedings? Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. And you purchased from him or some grantee of his? Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. And you did not discover that until after

Mr. McDONALD (interposing). No; the surveyor discovered it; the surveyor who surveyed the claim for patent.

Mr. ROBERTS. Was he a Government surveyor?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. The surveyor general of Alaska when he approved the survey did not discover it. The land office, when they accepted the money for the claim, did not discover it. But it was finally discovered; and instead of the usual practice they ordered the claim canceled. But I want to say this, that when the attention of the department was called to the triviality and the self-evident nature of the error that occurred, they have recalled that order and will further look into the matter in an effort to settle the matter. But that is the only charge against that claim.

Mr. ROBERTS. Now, what was to prevent the redescription of the real tract, after the error was discovered; why could you not have started the thing de novo!

Mr. McDONALD. They started out to prove that the land, as applied for and paid for, is the land originally located.

Mr. ROBERTS. But there is nothing to prevent them starting out de novo to prove that the land is the land that you have marked. The land had not been withdrawn; it was still open for entry, was it not? Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. And you could have cured your defect and have had a patent in your own name?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes; when it was discovered. That was after it was paid for.

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, you could still have done that?

Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; not at that time. All those coal lands had been withdrawn.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is what I am trying to find out. Mr. Little said they had not.

Mr. McDONALD. Yes; they had all been withdrawn. They were withdrawn in November, 1906.

Mr. ROBERTS. When was this error discovered?

Mr. McDONALD. Here within the last few months.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McKenzie has got a little matter that I am developing. Mr. McKenzie was making a statement with reference to those Alaska coal mines.

Mr. ROBERTS. Before we go any further, Mr. McKenzie, will you not locate this coal land on this map [indicating]?

Mr. McDONALD (indicating). There is a little lake up in here; [indicating] this is where I am located. This claim, as described on the location notice, was located out in the lake here [indicating]. Now, that [indicating] is the location of it.

Mr. ROBERTS. And here is the Cunningham group over here [indicating]. How many miles apart are they?

Mr. McDONALD. That is probably 10 miles from our lands; 10 or 12 miles.

Mr. ROBERTS. Now, let me ask you one further question. You do not call this Bering Lake salt water, do you?

Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Then, your delivery of the coal was on Bering Lake? Mr. McDONALD. No. My delivery on salt water was down here [indicating] alongside the collier.

Mr. GREGG. Now, where is the coal the Interior Department has been working on?

Mr. BOYD. On the Cunningham claims. You can see on this small map [indicating]; it was formerly the Cunningham claim.

Mr. ROBERTS. Do you know whether they ever examined any other outcroppings of coal?

Mr. BOYD. Yes. They have been over this field as shown by the red line [indicating]. That is the work of the geologist and his assistant, and two mining engineers.

Mr. ROBERTS. Did they go into this Controller Bay section?

Mr. BOYD. Yes. In the entire Bering River district there are three soft-coal fields. One is the English Co.'s claims, one the Cunningham claims, and one the Bering Lake. There are then three fields to be looked into before any site for operations can be determined. These three fields are in reality three sections of the same field.

Mr. ROBERTS. How extensively have they surveyed those three fields in this naval investigation of the coal situation?

Mr. BOYD. The naval party, as you know, is allied with the Bureau of Mines. All technical work is under that bureau's direction. Mr. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BOYD. The Bureau of Mines has its own investigation, and for consideration and reference all the previous work of the Geological Survey.

Mr. ROBERTS. I do not think you understand. We want to find out how much of this $75,000 has been expended in survey work; how much has been expended in getting out coal; and in order to know that, we ought to find out how much coal has been surveyed out of that $75,000 appropriation.

Mr. BOYD. I can not answer that except by saying the geologists have been over the majority of the Cunningham and other claimsin all, 150 surface outcrops and 22 tunnels. They have spent days looking at the outcroppings here [indicating], and also up in Mr. McDonald's field. So far as money is concerned, a great part of the money for investigations has been spent in driving through tunnels, etc., and sizing up underground conditions.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Chairman, suppose we go on and let Mr. McKenzie finish his statement, and when we want Commander Boyd's statement, we can go into that matter.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that would be better.

Mr. MCKENZIE. I would like to ask Commander Boyd first if, as a matter of fact, they did not just simply go into one of Clarence Cunningham's tunnels, where the coal was already in sight, and knock down that coal that was in sight; and if, as a matter of fact, they did drive any tunnels up there? Is that not a fact?

Mr. BOYD. That is not entirely a fact; that is partly the truth, They did start on some tunnels; some pinched out at once; some they drove themselves; so, all told, the major operations were in four large tunnels. One had been previously opened; the other three operations were new.

Mr. MCKENZIE. They did, gentlemen, exactly what a lot of incompetent men who did not understand their business would do naturally. Now, then, the Navy Department-of course, we do not expect to find coal miners among them; but I have understood that the way that thing was handled that really the coal was mined under the Navy men, and that the Bureau of Mines men, the parlor-chaircar miners, did not do very much and did not make a very good showing. As a matter of fact, the Bureau of Mines is under the direction of Dr. Holmes, a man who, in my judgment, is most incompetent to carry on this kind of work. I do not suppose there is a mining man in the world that would give him $1,000 a year to go out there and do this work.

Now, the naval engineers; as I understand it, all they attempt to do is to pass upon the quality of the coal. So that, after spending all this money, you have really got nothing, and all you have got is what the miners up there paid hard-earned money for to demonstrate this coal for you. And to-day they are trying to beat those men out of it-I do not say you; I am talking now about the Interior Department of this Government; they are trying to beat these men just as they beat that man all these years out of his property and set him down to work in a brickyard at Seattle.

The CHAIRMAN. I may say at this point that those questions are questions that we do not have anything to do with.

Mr. ROBERTS. I do not think we are trying to beat anybody out of anything. We are trying to get the best thing we can for the Navy. We are interested in knowing whether the $75,000 appropriation was properly expended.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.