Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; subject to na val use. In the preparation of the organization for the operation and maintenance of the canal, it has always been my idea that the Government ought to utilize all persons from various bureaus and departments that are specially trained for special purposes in its organization there. That being the case, my idea has always been that the operating officer, the man actually in charge, general superintendent of transportation, as I have lined up the general organization, should be a naval officer. That naval officer should have the terminals, which would include the dry dock and the ports, including towboats and pilots, at either end; the coaling stations; and the actual operation of the locks. There should be a maintenance department in charge of an engineer of the Army. That is the idea I have had. I do not know that it will be carried out, but that was the scheme I outlined.

Mr. ROBERTS. Do you propose having repair shops in connection with the dock?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir. We have extensive machine shops now. We are 2,000 miles away from the markets, and we have been forced to get machine shops that can not only make repairs to any class of plant that we have in use on the canal but actual manufacturing. Mr. ROBERTS. They would be under the Army officer?

Col. GOETHALS. They would be an adjunct to the dry dock and under the naval officer.

Mr. ROBERTS. When you say a dock large enough to accommodate any ship that could go through the locks, that means one of the largest docks we are now constructing?

Col. GOETHALS. That would be larger than any now constructing anywhere, except possibly at Liverpool. It will take a boat 1,000 feet long, and its width is 110 feet.

Mr. ROBERTS. And what depth?

Col. GOETHALS. Forty-one feet. That is available, then, for any ship that can use the canal and amply big for any naval vessel.

Mr. ROBERTS. Is there sufficient depth, or will it require dredging? Col. GOETHALS. We are building the dock in a rock hill, and so the dock will be relatively cheap construction. After the excavation is done it merely requires the plastering of the sides with concrete. Mr. ROBERTS. Actually a stone graving dock?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir. That is why we can do it out of the $375,000,000.

Mr. ROBERTS. And can you utilize the stone for other purposes? Col. GOETHALS. We can utilize it for the fill for the area occupied by the machine shops.

Mr. BATES. When will the dock be completed?

Col. GOETHALS. In the latter part of 1914. We did not begin on it until last year. Congress did not give us the necessary authority until the 24th of August. In June of last year we had to lay up some steam shovels, so I took a chance on their approving the dry dock and started in on the work.

The CHAIRMAN. The dock will have a middle caisson?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; divided off.

Mr. ROBERTS. There will be one dock there?

Col. GOETHALS. One dock. The Navy scheme advocated two on the Pacific and one on the Atlantic. I do not know whether they have

changed their minds or not. This question was taken up in 1910 when we took up the question of terminals.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the natural course of events, there will be comparatively small ships utilizing the canal, and would it not be advisable at some point to have a smaller dock than this tremendous one?

Col. GOETHALS. That is what we are doing. We have now for our own use on the Pacific side what we call a gridiron, where we take the boats out at extreme high tide and work on them between mean and low tide, and for the smaller boats our plan for the terminals contemplated not only the dry dock but a gridiron. The Navy Department, after conference with them, concluded that they would prefer a small dry dock to the gridiron, and we are substituting the small dry dock for the gridiron.

The CHAIRMAN. When you speak of the gridiron, do you mean a marine railway?

Col. GOETHALS. No, sir. We have one of those, but that can not take up any boats excepting relatively small ones. This is a timber arrangement, with timbers lengthwise and crosswise, with openings between and built at an angle to the horizontal or on an incline. It is built so that at high tide a boat can be placed over it and settle down on the cradles we have as the tide falls.

The CHAIRMAN. And then let the water go down?.
Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

work on the boat.

Then at extreme high tide we can not

Mr. HOBSON. What is the rise and fall of the tide?

Col. GOETHALS. There is a maximum of 23 feet at Panama.
Mr. HOBSON. What can you usually count on?

Col. GOETHALS. Twenty feet.

The CHAIRMAN. On the Atlantic side, at Colon, it is about 2 feet? Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Eighteen feet difference?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is about the average tide in the Caribbean?
Col. GOETHALS. About 2 feet; yes, sir.

In connection with the barracks for the marines, there is an idea prevalent that we have a number of buildings there that should be utilized. The difficulty with that proposition is that the buildings, as a rule, are on the wrong side of the canal. The ants and the rot are rapidly destroying the buildings. We can transfer them and reerect them at an average of about 25 per cent of their original cost, but then they will last but a relatively short time. The estimate of $400,000, which was taken up and prepared on the Isthmus in consultation with Maj. Butler, contemplates concrete structures.

Mr. HOBSON. What will be the number of men that the barracks can accommodate?

Col. GOETHALS. Five hundred marines, I believe, is the number that the estimate is based upon.

Mr. GREGG. What do you call the east side?

Col. GOETHALS. This side [indicating]. There [indicating] is the north side. The new railroad comes across here [indicating] and is about a mile back from the canal, opposite Bas Obispo. Then it comes in here at Pedro Miguel [indicating] and then follows right on here [indicating] to Panama.

Mr. GREGG. Does it cross the canal?

Col. GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. HOBSON. Where are the Army barracks?

Col. GOETHALS. They are here [indicating].

Mr. HOBSON. They are not very far from the marine barracks? Col. GOETHALS. No, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Please name again the point where you propose to locate the marine barracks.

Col. GOETHALS. Ancon, right near Panama.

Mr. GREGG. Where will the permanent barracks be located?

Col. GOETHALS. Right here [indicating] on this side of Ancon Hill. Mr. GREGG. And the military barracks?

Col. GOETHALS. They are to be over here on this side, at Culebra or at Miraflores.

Mr. BUTLER. Please tell us the elevation of the site selected for the marine barracks.

Col. GOETHALS. It is about 20 feet above sea level, I think, in part, and the upper plateau is about 100 feet above this datum.

Mr. BUTLER. Compared with the other locations which have been selected, is this desirable?

Col. GOETHALS. I think this location is more desirable than the military location.

Mr. BUTLER. About how many acres were set apart, do you recall? Col. GOETHALS. No, sir; I do not recall. It is ample for all their needs.

Mr. BUTLER. How far is it from the Miraflores Lock?

Col. GOETHALS. About 5 miles.

Mr. BUTLER. Is it located so that the marines at that point could furnish such protection as might be necessary for this dock?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUTLER. And you had that in view at the time of the selection? Col. GOETHALS. No, sir; the site had in view more the location of Panama. The marines are camped within a thousand feet of the dry dock.

Mr. HOBSON. Where is the location of the lock?

Col. GOETHALS. Right here [indicating].

Mr. LOUD. Is that dry dock behind the hill, so it is protected from fire?

Col. GOETHALS. Right back of a hill, and entirely protected against fire.

Mr. BUTLER. Do you advise constructing these barracks, if constructed at all, of cement?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; concrete.

Mr. HOBSON. Do you have the same ants they have in the Philippines?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; the white ant.

Mr. HOBSON. Is the toredo found down there?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUTLER. Tell us how soon the dock will be completed.

Col. GOETHALS. During the latter part of 1914. The Miraflores

Locks will be completed next month.

Mr. BUTLER. At this time you have there a complete plant?
Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUTLER. And it will be removed, I presume, after the canal is completed?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BUTLER. If these barracks are constructed, would now be a desirable time?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir; this is the time.

Mr. BUTLER. Can you give us an idea how much cheaper they can be constructed at this time than later?

Col. GOETHALS. Very much, because it is a question of reorganizing for the work or utilizing the organization and plants we now have. The CHAIRMAN. And also utilizing the property you have there for

the construction?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. When you speak of a cement plant do you mean that you are actually manufacturing cement there?

Col. GOETHALS. No. We have a very advantageous contract for cement. We are buying cement delivered in New York at $1.19, and the price to-day is about $1.65. The Atlas Cement Co., which is furnishing the contract, has renewed the contract at the same price, in order to provide all the cement required for the canal, and extended it to include any cement that is required prior to the official opening of the canal, January 1, 1915. Also our rock-crushing plants are now in operation, and if we get additional work we can keep them going; otherwise we will shut down; and our sand comes from 20 miles up the coast. We would keep that plant going until we got sufficient sand to do the work.

Mr. HOBSON. Can you tell us how many stories in height the barracks are to be?

Col. GOETHALS. The details I know nothing about.

Mr. HOBSON. Do you know whether it will be reenforced construction?

Col. GOETHALS. No. We made our figures on concrete-block construction.

Mr. HOBSON. You make the blocks and lay them?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kopp. How many marines are on the Isthmus now?

Col. GOETHALS. Just at the present time there are those who came from Nicaragua, but the force that has been there is figured at about 450.

Mr. KOPP. What do you contemplate will be the force when the canal is completed?

Col. GOETHALS. This estimate is based on 500 men.

Mr. KOPP. Is provision being made in the construction of the barracks for any increase in the number of marines?

Col. GOETHALS. I do not know. All I know is that this estimate of $400,000 is for a force of 500 men.

Mr. KOPP. In all probability, will that be as many as you will need under ordinary circumstances, as far as you can foresee?

Col. GOETHALS. That is a question of policy that I would not be able to answer. The site was selected originally for 1,200 marines, as I understand the situation, and recently in a conference with the headquarters the Marine Corps advocated increasing the number of marines over what they have now, but that is merely a question of opinion on my part.

Mr. ROBERTS. This reservation is large enough to permit of an enlargement of the barracks?

Col. GOETHALS. Subsequently, if found necessary; yes, sir.

Mr. HOBSON. Is your idea of the need for a large number of marines based on local needs, or the possibility of occupying advanced bases?

Col. GOETHALS. My understanding was that the object in locating the marines there was primarily to use them for advance-base operations, and for ready use in Central American countries.

Mr. HOBSON. That brings us to the question of the defense of the canal, and, if the chairman does not object, I would like to enter on that.

The CHAIRMAN. I shall be glad to have you take that up later, but just now I want to take up another point.

Colonel, please state fully with reference to the services of the marines and also their efficiency, and the satisfactory or unsatisfactory service which they have rendered.

Col. GOETHALS. We have had no special call for the marines to render us service at all. They have twice gone to Nicaragua from the canal, and there have been occasions during the election periods in the Republic of Panama when their services were liable to be called upon. Relatively speaking, the efficiency of any command is largely a reflection of the commanding officer, and I am willing to admit here, as I have elsewhere, that relatively the marines on the Isthmus are in better shape as to appearance and discipline than at any previous period since I have been there, and that as long as we keep the present commanding officer of marines on the Isthmus I am perfectly willing to have all the marines that can be crowded in under him concentrated on the Isthmus.

Mr. GREGG. Who is the officer?

Col. GOETHALS. Maj. Butler.

Mr. GREGG. Can a man stay there permanently?

Col. GOETHALS. I do not know. He is under an additional detail, and if I continue longer than the expiration of that detail, I hope he will, too.

Mr. GREGG. What about the health; does not the climate have the same effect as in the Philippines?

Col. GOETHALS. That is largely a question, I think, of exercise. Men who are active and keep out of doors are generally in good physical trim. Of course they get very nervous and a change is desirable periodically, but the commanding officer there now sees that the men are kept busy, and I think his sick rate is very much less than that of the commission's forces.

Mr. ROBERTS. Remarkably so?

Col. GOETHALS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LOUD. The Army post is not very well situated as to parade grounds?

Col. GOETHALS. It is not a question of parade grounds.

Mr. LOUD. I mean a place to exercise the men.

Col. GOETHALS. The marines didn't have one at first, either, but exercise is given them in other ways, and they are at work constantly. They built their own parade ground and a number of other utilities on their own initiative.