before Congress, when a bill is reported the fact that the chairman advocates that bill gives it some effect.

Mr. GREGG. Would not our officer, regardless of his rank, have the same place in a council that he would if he were an admiral?

Secretary MEYER. He would have a vote, but he would not have the same weight.

Mr. TALBOTT. If we had the most vessels and the officer had the rank, naturally he would be the presiding officer, and if there were a tie he would cast the deciding vote.

Secretary MEYER. The presiding officer always has more influence. Mr. ROBERTS. And when it comes to actual hostilities, although we might have more vessels there than any other nation, yet the commander of our fleet would be subordinate to some other officer.

Secretary MEYER. He might be subordinate to a French admiral who only had 2 vessels when we had 16.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. In view of all these disadvantages that we are under on account of having these ranks abolished, admiral and vice admiral, it seems all the reasons are in favor of having the ranks. I would like to know what reasons have operated on Congress to abolish them-why have we not had them for all the time if all the reasons are on one side?

Secretary MEYER. I think what has prejudiced Congress in the past was what the chairman touched on-that they did not want to see too many rear admirals around; they did not want to see too many admirals and vice admirals.

I would like to call the attention of the committee to the fact that we have established a new system of punishment or reduced the form of punishment to a detention camp. I was very much impressed when I went to California two years ago to see young men in jail for some offense. A year ago this summer in England I found that they were ahead of us; that they had detention camps for minor offenses not of a criminal character. They are left in their uniforms, under severe training, but they do not lose their selfrespect. There was no suggestion of a prison, and it worked so satisfactorily in giving the young fellows another chance that I have established it in our Navy. We have detention camps at Port Royal and at Puget Sound. Even in cases of desertion, after they have been put in prison, if they show the right spirit, we are sending them to the detention camp. Last year you changed the form of punishment for desertion in time of peace, which I think was very wise, because many of the young fellows desert when 17 years old, and they do not appreciate what they are doing; they are late, and they are afraid. to go back. I think it was a move in the right direction in time of peace. These camps are bringing good results.

Mr. HOBSON. Do you need any further appropriation?

Secretary MEYER. Not until we have tried out the scheme for a longer period.

Mr. ROBERTS. Take a deserter in time of peace, he is court-martialed and imprisoned. Does a sentence of the court-martial carry a discharge from the Navy, or simply give him the imprisonment? Secretary MEYER. My impression is that it gives him the imprisonment only.

Mr. ROBERTS. Under ordinary procedure, what would happen at the end of the sentence?

Secretary MEYER. He would go back to the service if he had shown up well at the disciplinary barracks.

Mr. ROBERTS. But the court-martial does carry dishonorable discharge?

Secretary MEYER. Under the present service, since the charge has been removed of losing the rights of citizenship where they serve in prison with good behavior, the term is reduced, and they reported to me, furthermore, that if they showed the proper spirit and a willingness to act in a way which was becoming and desired to reform, we are sending them to the detention camp.

The CHAIRMAN. Permit me to make this suggestion, which will clear that matter up. You use the words "detention camp." The name is "disciplinarian barracks." The detention camp is a place they send the recruits when they go into the service.

Secretary MEYER. We first called it a detention camp.

The CHAIRMAN. They now call it the disciplinarian barracks.
Secretary MEYER. That is a better name.

Mr. ROBERTS. Are these fellows taken out of the prision before the term for which they were sentenced expires and sent to the disciplinarian barracks?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, they serve the rest of the time at the barracks.

Mr. ROBERTS. And if their conduct in the barracks is all right. they go back into the service?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. They have not been out of the service; they remain in?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. That generally resolves itself to this, that the fate of each fellow under those circumstances really rests with the commandant of the prison, whatever report he makes?

Secretary MEYER. Upon his good behavior.

Mr. ROBERTS. Does the commandant of the prison make a report on each one, saying why he should be sent to the disciplinary barracks?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HOBSON. Would they not have a recommendation?

Secretary MEYER. Yes; and the Bureau of Navigation would know his record, his behavior, and whether his sentence had been reduced. Mr. ROBERTS. As I understand, the Bureau of Navigation goes through these prison records with the idea of saving as many of these boys to the service as possible?

Secretary MEYER. That is the idea; that is the purpose of the disciplinary barracks.

Mr. ROBERTS. If a man had no further time in the service after the expiration of his sentence, then you do not pay any attention to his 1ecord with an idea of putting him in the disciplinary barracks?

Secretary MEYER. He is liable to go into the barracks if he shows by his conduct that he is deserving.

Mr. ROBERTS. A man has one year to serve on his enlistment, and he deserts and gets a sentence of three years. Of course that would take him beyond the time of his original enlistment?

Secretary MEYER. We are trying to encourage reenlistments. You changed the law. After one enlistment a man can enter the service for one or two years. Seamen who have entered the Navy and who have been subjects of punishment, if they show the proper spirit and want to reform they are shown every encouragement to do so, even to reenlistment.

Mr. ROBERTS. In the case I mention of a man having one year to serve, is it likely that you would take him out of the prison and send him to the barracks?

Secretary MEYER. Yes; we might possibly do that. The intent has changed as regards the treatment of men, enlisted and otherwise. Unless it is some criminal action, it is our aim and object to reform the young fellows and to give them another chance, and if they show the proper spirit let them continue or reenlist.

Mr. BATHRICK. As to the courts-martial, are the records made public; is the public permitted to examine them?

Secretary MEYER. I do not know how that is.

Mr. BATHRICK. In view of the practice in the civil courts, I ask whether the same facilities of public examination are afforded? Secretary MEYER. Not the same facilities; no, sir.

Mr. BATHRICK. Why is there not the same practice as in the civil courts?

Secretary MEYER. Because it is under military procedure.

Mr. HOBSON. The court itself can decide at any time whether it should be public or otherwise.

Secretary MEYER. There is only one remaining matter, and that is the question of the Naval Militia and the naval vessels loaned to the various States. As those vessels are growing older they are becoming less useful to the Naval Militia. After the Spanish War there were a lot of vessels useful for the Naval Militia. That war now is a good many years off. It would look as though the committee will eventually have to consider the policy of having special vessels designed and built for the Naval Militia.

Mr. GREGG. Can you not buy such vessels as we used in the Spanish War?

Secretary MEYER. To buy or build; if there is an opportunity, to buy. Sometimes the gentlemen who own yachts are glad to sell them at 25 cents on the dollar.

Mr. HOBSON. It seems to me that so many vessels become obsolete that they ought to supply the needs of the militia.

Secretary MEYER. Of course, the maintenance of these big ships is expensive. The Chicago is used by the Massachusetts Militia. They have in Massachusetts one of the largest militia, and several ex-naval officers, but the Chicago is an expense, with their best care. The CHAIRMAN. Is not the Chicago an old one?

Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does she still carry her sails, as shown by that picture? Secretary MEYER. No.

Mr. ROBERTS. Right on that line, does the Government pay for the berthing space of the Chicago in Boston, or is that paid by the State?

Secretary MEYER. No.

Mr. ROBERTS. Just what expense is the Chicago to the Government while there for the use of the Naval Militia?

Secretary MEYER. We have some engineers and a few men aboard. It is the deterioration which is allowed to go on from the lack of constant care and attention on the part of the men assigned to the ships in the militia.

Mr. ROBERTS. It is not an actual outlay for upkeep?

Secretary MEYER. It is an actual outlay, eventually, for upkeep or maintenance.

The CHAIRMAN. And the Navy makes the repairs?
Secretary MEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HOBSON. If we had special vessels we would have to do the same thing?

Secretary MEYER. The point is that in many instances they would be much smaller. The trouble is now that we are short of gunboats, since we require a number of gunboats for South and Central America. That is the reason we assigned her there.

Mr. ROBERTS. What practical use could be made of a ship like the Chicago in the Navy to-day?

Secretary MEYER. I do not think any.

Mr. ROBERTS. What is the Government losing by turning her over to the State?

Secretary MEYER. Nothing. We have not enough to go around. They would be too large for the Lakes and other States where they have a much smaller militia.

The CHAIRMAN. Could she be converted into a mine-laying ship? Secretary MEYER. I do not believe so, except at great expense. We have one converted mine-laying ship.

The CHAIRMAN. They wanted another, and I did not know whether this boat could be converted.

Secretary MEYER. My information is that a ship specially designed would be so much better that it would be economy in the end to build her, rather than to take some vessel and change it over. We are short of auxiliaries.

Mr. Foss. I would like to ask you about the number of officers, Mr. Secretary. If Congress does not authorize any more battleships, is it necessary to provide for more officers? Have we officers enough to-day for the present Navy?

Secretary MEYER. I will secure that information from the Bureau of Navigation. I will have any questions that you may want to ask answered with pleasure. The Bureau of Navigation or the aid for personnel would know.

Mr. Foss. I will put in some questions along that line. There is a shortage of commissioned officers to-day, is there not?

Answer. Yes.

Mr. Foss. Is there a shortage of officers of command rank? Answer. Considering our needs for possible war, there is a shortage in all the higher grades-flag officers, captains, commanders, and hieutenant commanders. The term "command rank," however is

misleading, because command is the attribute of the whole line. Service in every grade, whether performed at sea or on shore, is a preparation for higher command, commensurate with the officer's rank and previous experience. The present shortage necessitates the assignment of many officers to duties of higher grades than their

own.

Mr. Foss. Are there enough ships in commission and in reserve to provide sufficient sea service for commanding officers to properly fit them for command in time of war?

Answer. Considering that captains have their sea service in the active fleet and commanders in both active and reserve fleets, their sea service is sufficient. As many of the vessels of all classes are in commission and reserve as the authorized number of officers and men will permit, and with due regard for economy in the maintenance of ships in commission. Captains about to be promoted have had an average sea service of a year and nine months; commanders on promotion about the same; but both will soon have more, with the longer time spent in these grades. Within only a few years officers passed 15 to 20 years in the grade of lieutenant alone, leaving little time for experience in the higher grades. Thus, two rear admirals now about to retire, who recently held the most important commands in the Navy, spent but 12 years altogether in the grades of commander, captain, and rear admiral, out of a total of 47 years. Recently officers have been in the grade of commander from 3 to 33 years; in the grade of captain only 4 years. It was impracticable for them to have, during that time, more sea service than was given, as an average. While the time spent in the several grades has varied much of late years, from various causes (act of Mar. 3, 1899, increase of lieutenant commanders, making ex-engineers extra ǹumbers), the total service of all officers is the same, and their amount of sea service is nearly uniform-approximately, half their entire service upon retirement at 62. Conditions are now changed, so that soon about one-third of an officer's service will be spent as commander, captain, and rear admiral.

Training for the higher duties in war begins more directly with lieutenant commanders, and it is the policy to have officers from then on do as much of their sea service as practicable in the larger ships, all of it being valuable training for command. Many lieutenant commanders and lieutenants who are not in large vessels receive excellent training with the fleet, in command of destroyers. This is good training for larger commands in tactics and also in the combined employment of vessels of different classes. For the same reason commanders are being ordered as battleship and armored-cruiser executives for part of their sea service, so that they may acquire more experience in large ships and in the fleet.

Mr. Foss. What was the average sea service in actual command of seagoing vessels in the grade of rear admirals, and how many, if any, had one year or less sea service in such command?

Answer. Present flag officers on the active list had an average of one year and eight months' sea service as captain and one year and nine months as commander. Many of them had also actual command experience in lower grades. None had less than one year at sea as captain.

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