Capt. GIBBONS. That is my idea.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. And if 33 per cent of those that do stand your examination are unable to master the course and fail before they get through, does not that prove that those examinations are not too rigid?

Capt. GIBBONS. That is what I have been maintaining all the time, but with difficulty, because the general opinion is that they are too rigid, and every man who does not get through becomes a center for spreading the idea that it is the fault of the system and not the fault of the individual.

Mr. HOBSON. You misunderstood

Mr. ROBERTS. I understand that they are saying that your course is too rigid.

Capt. GIBBONS. That is true. That is the proposition I am confronted with.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. Is it not the fact that a good many officers who are able not only to stand the entrance examination but to graduate are afterwards examined for promotion from one rank to another and they fail to stand the examination?

Capt. GIBBONS. There are such cases; yes, sir.

Mr. HOBSON: Captain, is it not less difficult now to go through than it was in the days when you and I were there?

Capt. GIBBONS. Much less difficult.

Mr. GREGG. Captain, there is one question I would like to ask. We are confronted now with a peculiar condition. The fact is that if you continue to graduate the same number from the academy that we have been graduating it will take 20 years to supply the officers needed for our present Navy, is it not?

Capt. GIBBONS. You mean, going on just as we are now?

Mr. GREGG. Yes. Now, is there any solution for that trouble?
Capt. GIBBONS. I have not looked into that at all.

Mr. GREGG. We have got to do something about it.

Mr. HOBSON. That brings up quite a question. I do not want to digress. When does this law go into effect at the Naval Academy? Mr. GREGG. This year.

Mr. HOBSON. They certainly ought not to reduce the number at the Naval Academy.

Mr. GREGG. No; certainly not. Now, could that be worked in any manner by the enlisted men?

Capt. GIBBONS. It is.

Mr. GREGG. Well, they are not supplying the deficiency; we are still short. I would like to get your idea as to how we are going to meet that condition. It is worrying me. It is up to the naval officers to work out some plan.

Mr. HOBSON. I would like to suggest, Mr. Gregg, that we certainly could not afford to allow the practice of each Member of Congress being entitled to two men at Annapolis to lapse.

Mr. GREGG. But we now have two.

Mr. HOBSON. No; that lapsed.

Mr. TRIBBLE. Mr. Chairman, I think it is a good time to bring up my bill to abolish the "plucking board."

The CHAIRMAN. We are catching up.

Mr. BATHRICK. Now, just one brief observation, Mr. Chairman. I desire to make this observation in justice to the officers on board

our ships. I have taken up this idea of requesting a regulation requiring the officers on board the ships to assist these men who are taking these correspondence-school courses. I do not mean to infer that the officers on board these ships are not often willing, kindly, and anxious to assist; but the matter is left entirely to their discretion and is not a matter of regulation. That is the point I wish to make. I am satisfied they do assist, and I am satisfied they are zealous and enthusiastic in assisting any young man who desires to get along and has ambition to rise. But that, under the present circumstances, is left entirely to the matter of their discretion. I wish it to be taken out of their discretion and that the regulations require them. to assist. That is the only point.

The CHAIRMAN. I think if you take that up with the administration of the department you can do something.

Mr. BATHRICK. I am taking it up with them, but at the same time it is a good plan to take it up before the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, let us proceed. The next page, Captain. I notice that you have made various changes with reference to the clerks.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Chairman, before we get to that I would like to ask Capt. Gibbons a question or two about the first part of the paragraph-the sword master and two assistants. Are those civilians, Capt. Gibbons?

Capt. GIBBONS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. If they are doing away with civilian officers, why not put military officers there to instruct in sword work?

Capt. GIBBONS. I think it would be a good thing, personally. course it would work a great hardship to Prof. Corbesier.

Of

Mr. ROBERTS. It is not a question of hardship to the individuals;

it is a question of getting the best results.

Capt. GIBBONS. It is a question of hardship to the individuals at the same time; do you not think so? I think it will be a great hardship to those young instructors, in a certain way. But not as much of a hardship on a young man as on an old man, who has gone on under a system for a good many years. For instance, if a man has been instructor at the academy for a year and is dropped, it is not so great a hardship as in the case of a man that has been there over 50 years. Mr. ROBERTS. It is a greater hardship on him to be dropped at the end of the year.

Capt. GIBBONS. I do not think it is as much hardship on a young man as on an older man.

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, it is a great hardship on him, too. Well, now, Captain, following out your idea of having military officers there, why would it not be a good plan, when you come down to clerks, instead of having civilian employees, to use your yeomen?

Capt. GIBBONS. It would be a good plan, if you could get the

men.

yeo

Mr. ROBERTS. There would be no trouble if the number was increased.

Capt. GIBBONS. If the number were increased.

Mr. ROBERTS. So that, under your plan, it would be a good idea to have them all military men, either commissioned or enlisted? Capt. GIBBONS. I would not extend it to the clerks.

Mr. ROBERTS. Why not? That is what I am trying to get at. If that theory is good in one case, why not in the other?

Capt. GIBBONS. Because they are not engaged in the education of naval officers.

Mr. ROBERTS. They come in contact with them in various ways, do they not, these civil employees?

Capt. GIBBONS. Not in the way an instructor does.

Mr. ROBERTS. You draw the line, then, at either military or civilian instructors; men who are really instructing in something; and it would not make any difference what?

Capt. GIBBONS. I do not draw the line at all. My own idea, my own policy, is that if I were able to carry it out I would have a larger percentage of naval officers in the academic departments, and, mind you, I do not say that I would dispense with all of them. I think there are a certain number of professors who should be retained there.

Mr. ROBERTS. But you think you could have military men as swordmasters and as instructors in physical training and gymnastics just as well as civilians?

Capt. GIBBONS. There is an officer in charge of this branch of physical training. There is a surgeon and a lieutenant. For instructors in gymnastics I should prefer having naval instructors, if I could get the men; if I could get a naval man who was as good as a professional athlete.

Mr. ROBERTS. Why could you not get just as good an instructor in gymnastics from among naval officers as in English? They have all been instructed in gymnastics, as well as in English, when they were in the academy?

Capt. GIBBONS. The systems of instruction in gymnastics have changed

Mr. ROBERTS. Is that not true in the academic branches; the systems are changing and improving all the time?

Capt. GIBBONS. I do not think that in teaching United States history, for example, there has been much change in what you impart to a person.

Mr. ROBERTS. The methods have changed wonderfully since I was a boy, in teaching history. They do not teach the same way at all in the schools now. And so it is in all lines of instruction. civil life the methods are being improved from year to year.

In

Mr. HOBSON. Captain, you would not desire to assign commissioned officers to carry out the set-up exercises and other duties that these assistants perform?

Mr. ROBERTS. If you had assistants that would take charge of it I would.

Mr. HOBSON. Well, as you say, they are not in charge of it now. There is an officer in charge; but I mean to have him go down and go through the set-up exercises like these assistants would, with the "plebes," and others that come in.

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I want to ask why not? If he is going through this mental process with them, why not go through the physical just as well?

Mr. HOBSON. He does; he does aboard ship; but he makes his petty officers aboard ship carry out the details, and these men here are carrying out certain details.

Mr. ROBERTS. Oh, I am looking at the theory, not the ethics. Why is not the commissioned officer just as well qualified to go through the set-up exercises as the others?

Mr. HOBSON. Better qualified; but he would be more valuable at other work.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is my idea, he would be more valuable at other work than he is in the schoolroom. That is what I am getting at. And we are not getting as good results in the schoolroom as if we had trained men for that purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us take up these items. I see you have changed two clerks at $1,500 to three clerks at $1,500 each. Tell us about that. Capt. GIBBONS. These clerks were put under the separate Naval Academy appropriation at the time of the classification of the clerks by the Navy Department; there were two of them assigned to the academy of $1,500 each, what we call clerks. There are other clerks who are paid out of other appropriations for the general storekeeper and the pay office, and who perform duties of the same kind as these clerks, that get more, get higher salaries. I recommended to the Navy Department last year a 20 per cent flat increase in the pay of clerks, in order to bring them up to what the clerks in the other departments were getting, those who were paid out of other appropriations. The department did not recommend that. So this year, in order to make a promotion and have the clerks of long service get the same as they are getting, the same as those who are paid under different appropriations for instance, the clerks in the pay office are paid under "Supplies and accounts," and some other clerks are paid under the appropriation "General pay of the Navy"—this recommendation was made. The fact is that these are all clerks of long service, and I wanted to make a promotion, if possible, from the $1,200 to the $1,500 grade of one man who has charge of the labor roll and has to be familiar with the decisions of the auditor and has very important work. I would like to promote him on account of his long and efficient service. For that reason I recommended an increase from two to three clerks at $1,500 and then added another at $840.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you have down below that two clerks increased to three clerks at $840 each?

Capt. GIBBONS. That is, I take a man from the $1,200 class and promote him up to the $1,500 class; this man Rogers.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, whom would you promote to the $840 class? Capt. GIBBONS. I would promote the next man.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not speaking of the man, but

Capt. GIBBONS (interposing). From the next grade below; one man right along the line.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there a grade below the $840? Would not that be a new man to come in there?

Capt. GIBBONS. He would come in at $840. There is no grade. below that.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean. He would be a new clerk. Capt. GIBBONS. Yes; he would be a new clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you have one draftsman increased from $1,200 to $1,500.

Capt. GIBBONS. And one suryevor from $1,500, on the ground that the importance of their work from the time those salaries were first

given them has greatly increased. We have no civil engineer on duty there, and all the work of drafting and surveying for the improvements and things of that kind is done by these two men, who are men of long service. The surveyor has recently resigned. We have not been able to get a man at the salary of $1,200.

Mr. HOBSON. How long have these present men been in the service? Commander COLE. The draftsman has been there about eight years. He was previously employed there, and he received some education in order to pass this civil-service examination, which he did. Mr. HOBSON. How long has the surveyor been there?

Commander COLE. The surveyor about the same length of time. The CHAIRMAN. You eliminate the item of the dentist at $2,520 because he is transferred to "Pay of the Navy"?

Capt. GIBBONS. He is taken up somewhere else.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; he is taken up under "Pay of the Navy." Now, on page 101 there are no changes from the established order of things. On page 102 there is no change from the established order. "Current and miscellaneous expenses of the Naval Academy." No change with reference to that. "Purchase, binding, and repair of books for the library" is the same. "Expenses of the Board of Visitors" is the same. "For contingencies of the superintendency of the academy, $2,000." No change there. "Current and miscellaneous expenses," the total is the same. Now we come to "Maintenance

of the Naval Academy." "For the general maintenance of the academy, for books, periodicals, and various items." You have asked for an increase of $10,000, from $215,000 to $225,000. Please explain that.

Mr. HOBSON. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question before he passes on? It occurs to me to get a word from him, before we leave that paragraph on page 99, with regard to this swordmaster, covering the case of the present swordmaster, Corbeza. You would not be in favor of having that provide that this present swordmaster should be put under the status of the master of sword at West Point? That would enable him, in this particular case, to get the relief that he refers to, under the same precedent by which this dentist here was made the same as a surgeon dentist at West Point in the appropriation act of last year.

Mr. TALBOTT. But in that dentist case the department has not carried it through.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; the question is as to pay.

Mr. HOBSON. Omitting the part that relates to the rank.

Capt. GIBBONS. "Pay and emoluments." The decision is that he gets allowances.

The CHAIRMAN. But he does not get a commission.

Mr. HOBSON. I want to get the captain's idea as to incorporating, after this provision for swordmaster, that after the passage of this act he shall receive the pay and emoluments of the master of sword at West Point; no rank, but the pay and emoluments.

Mr. TALBOTT. Then put that amendment in and you can explain it. Mr. HOBSON. We can explain it on the floor of the House. What is your idea as to that, Captain?

Capt. GIBBONS. I see no objection to it.

Mr. HOBSON. Do you think it would be a just thing?