Statement of expenditures under appropriation "Steam Machiner during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1912-Continued.

Summary of expenditures under appropriation “Steam Machinery" for the fiscal year 1912.

Admiral CONE. You will observe that there is one thing stricken out of that paragraph, "That the sum to be paid out of this appropriation for aeroplane machinery shall not exceed $20,000."

The CHAIRMAN. That was the amount that we inserted last year? Admiral CONE. That was the amount you put in. I recommended that the amount $20,000 would be sufficient. Up to date about half of it has been expended, and the year is about half gone. Every reasonable request that has been submitted for aeroplane machinery has been granted.

The CHAIRMAN. The amount will be sufficient for the current year? Admiral CONE. Yes, sir; it looks so at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you to say about next year?

Admiral CONE. For the next year I have asked that the language be stricken out. It is a thing that is in a stage of development, and it is almost impossible to estimate just what will be necessary. I think the same thing might apply to small boats, and a large number of other things. It would be much better if the discretion were left in the Navy Department. It is desirable not to have a restriction with regard to the amount of money which we can spend for aeroplane machinery.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is it contemplated that you will spend?

Admiral CONE. That is hard for me to say. It might run up to $150,000 or it might not be more than $30,000, depending largely upon the development of aeroplanes, and upon the amount of money available in the appropriation, which has a direct bearing on the amount which can be spent. In any event, I do not think I could spend any large sum, because it would not be available, because to do so it would have to be taken from other more necessary things.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee inserted the limitation because it was largely in an experimental stage, and with a gross sum of $4,250,000, we wanted to have some approximate idea.

Mr. KOPP. How much was spent this year for aeroplanes, if you can tell?

Admiral CONE. To January 1, 1913, we have spent under "steam machinery" $12,397.73.

Mr. GREGG. In your bureau?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. KOPP. Please tell us what development has been made in the use of the aeroplanes by the Navy; do you think they will be a great success, etc.?

Admiral CONE. I think they will be very useful. There has been no radical development in the last year in the motor. Of course, that is the most important part, and that is where they fail now. A number of concerns are working in an attempt to improve the

motors.

Mr. GREGG. Are you working on that line?

Admiral CONE. No, sir. We are not making any attempt, but are depending entirely on outside development.

Mr. KOPP. I have read several magazine articles lately dealing with the use of aeroplanes for attacking battleships. Do you think they have reached that stage of perfection where they can be used in that way with any degree of success?

It

Admiral CONE. No. sir. I think their use at present is largely one for scouting purposes. It must be remembered that the aeroplane engine is simply a gasoline engine of a very expensive type. costs a good deal of money for the reason that you can not expect a man to spend a great deal of money in developing the engine unless we buy a good many of them, or buy a few at a much higher price. The CHAIRMAN. That is because it is in the stage of early development?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is "For purchase, handling, and preservation of all material and stores," etc., $2,000,000, which is the same as last year. Was there any unexpended balance in that item? Admiral CONE. The unexpended balance shown in the statement covers the total amount. That is the way the Treasury Department keeps it.

Mr. GREGG. Do they not keep it by items?

Admiral CONE. I do not think they do, not in showing the balance. Mr. GREGG. We have always been able heretofore to get the unexpended balance in any particular appropriation.

Admiral CONE. We have the unexpended balance, and it shows what was expended under each item.

The CHAIRMAN. The statement comprehends both, but it can be separated?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir. It might be well for me to refer to the statement submitted above, which is similar to the one submitted last year.

Mr. GREGG. Showing the unexpended balance under each appropriation?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir; and in addition there shows in this statement the "operating credits" as the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts calls them. In other words, the money we have turned back into the Treasury under the law which requires us to pay for things the

second time.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is: "For incidental expenses for Navy vessels, yards, the engineering experiment station, such as photographing, books, stationery, technical books, periodicals, engineering indices, and instruments, $6,000," which is the same as last year. Will you need all of that estimate?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir. That amount is just about right. We spend practically all of it.

The CHAIRMAN. The proviso for clerical and drafting force is the same, but you have increased the limit $50,000?

Admiral CONE. I have increased the limit to $450,000. If you will note, I am not asking for any additional money, simply an increase in the legal allowance to employ clerks and technical assistants. I feel that we have accomplished some economy, as will be noted from the balances. The Navy is considerably larger, and we are running on $400,000 less than in 1910, and are turning in a balance of $250,000, I think largely due to the fact that I have been able with the $50,000 increase the year before last to employ enough of these men to get a real system of accountability by seeing where the money was going and keeping track of just where the heavy expenditures were. I do not believe that any big institution can accomplish economies without clerical force to keep records showing where the

money is going. Another thing which is running up the call on us for clerical and technical assistance is that the appropriation bills are calling more and more for the construction of ships at navy yards. The construction of these ships at navy yards, while paid for under "Increase of the Navy," necessitates the employment of additional draftsmen and technical men to work out the detailed designs, and that expense has to be paid out of this particular appropriation and not out of the appropriation made for the ships. That is increasing all the time-the call on us for additional technical men-and this $50,000 I had planned to spend largely in the employment of additional technical men in connection with the contruction of ships at navy yards.

The CHAIRMAN. Increasing the limit $50,000 either last year or the year before

Admiral CONE (interposing). The year before last.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing). Resulted in a saving and economy?
Admiral CONE. It certainly did.

The CHAIRMAN. And you think this will result likewise?
Admiral CONE. I am sure it will.

The CHAIRMAN. It does not increase the total appropriation?

Admiral CONE. No, sir. It gives me authority to employ more technical men. If the drawings and all the information as to how each piece of machinery is to be constructed is not complete when it goes into the shop it necessarily runs up the cost, and in order to prevent that you have to employ draftsmen.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. Admiral, hitherto we have been authorizing the building of two battleships a year. At the last session of ConIn view of the fact

gress we authorized the building of only one. that we authorized at the last session of Congress only one battleship will that make the necessity for the increased number of skilled men the same as if we had authorized two?

Admiral CONE. The necessity will be greater for this reason, you authorized 1 battleship, but you also authorized 6 destroyers, 8 submarines, 2 fuel ships, 1 submarine tender, and 1 destroyer tender, making 6 different types of ships. Of course, it is not as difficult to design a submarine tender or a fuel ship as it would be in the case of a battleship, but in the machinery part it is almost as difficult, and the design work with reference to 2 or 4 battleships is very little more than with reference to one, because the designs for one carry for the other. I am not complaining, because we want to build as many ships as we can, but the variety of ships appropriated for last year has taxed us to the limit in our designing force and we are behind.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. A large number of the small ships would require more men than two battleships.

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir; in the work done by draftsmen and clerks, not in the actual construction work.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. I understand, in the design work?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. The designs for one battleship will answer for two? Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. If you were building four colliers would one design answer for all?

Admiral CONE. One original design would answer for all, and even with repeated colliers, from one year to another, the designs of the previous year would answer, but in the construction we have also to employ technical men, because in each ship the work has to be carried out in accordance with the design.

Mr. GREGG. I understand you to say that that grows out of the fact that we are constructing them in the navy yards?

Admiral CONE. Most of the increase requested, yes, sir; to employ technical men in the navy yards to accomplish the construction of these ships which you have required to be built in the navy yards Mr. GREGG. And this extra work is not paid for out of the appropriation for the ships?

Admiral CONE. No, sir.

Mr. GREGG (interposing). This is extra, above the cost of the ship? Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. In estimating the cost of a ship are these extra items included?

Admiral CONE. No, sir. That has come up in these hearings a number of times.

Mr. GREGG. Is not that a part of the cost of the ship?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. I suppose other bureaus have additional expenses just like your bureau?

Admiral CONE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREGG. And in telling us what a ship costs, why is not that all included?

Admiral CONE. In the discussions on the floor of the House I have noticed at times that it has been included, but the law does not allow us to charge it in, for the reason that in the proviso under "Increase of the Navy" it provides that no technical or clerical force shall be paid for out of the appropriation, the last clause under "Increase of the Navy."

Mr. GREGG. I know it does, but that does not prevent you from informing Congress that this additional expense enters into the price of the ship?

Admiral CONE. No, sir. We have informed Congress. Each time this discussion has come up it has been stated that this was one of the charges which could not be made against the particular appropriation, and there have been also at times estimates as to the salaries of the officers in connection with this, which is another charge which is paid for out of another appropriation.

Mr. GREGG. When we appropriate for a battleship or a collier and we limit the cost to not to exceed $1,000,000, that is not really the limit of cost?

Admiral CONE. No, sir; it is the limit of cost to be paid for out of that appropriation.

Mr. GREGG. But not the limit of cost of the ship?

Admiral CONE. No, sir.

Mr. KOPP. Those are what the industrial concerns would call overhead charges?

Admiral CONE. One of the items.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. Can you state what all of those overhead charges would add to the price of a battleship?