The CHAIRMAN. Did I understand you to say a moment ago that for the 21 inch torpedo you had contracted at $9,500?

Admiral TWINING. $9,500 was the price for 50, yes. That is admittedly a higher price than we would have to pay later, because it is in somewhat of an experimental stage yet.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it experimental in price and production, or experimental in use and service?

Admiral TWINING. We have had only one. We tried one torpedo that was contracted for on a sliding scale of price; that is, a base price with so much bonus if they got a certain increased range and a certain increased speed. That sample torpedo cost $17,495, and it cost them about $35,000 to build it and deliver it. We therefore thought it only fair on the first contract of 50 of the same torpedoes, having in view that there would probably be minor changes made and more or less experimental work to be done, that they should recover part of that loss, and the contract was made at that price.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that torpedo demonstrate efficiency?
Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. At 10,000-yard range?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is 5 miles?

The CHAIRMAN. Five sea miles.

Admiral TWINING. I think the actual cost of producing that torpedo, if it may be considered a finished product that is, no further experimenting to be done is probably in the neighborhood of $5,000 with a 9-hour workday, or $5,600 under the 8-hour law, so at $9,500 there is a 90 per cent profit on the 9-hour basis, or 66 per cent on the 8-hour basis. On future contracts we ought to get it for about $8,200 under the 8-hour law.

Mr. BATHRICK. How many are you getting at $9,500?

Admiral TWINING. Fifty.

Mr. BATHRICK. So it gave them a profit on that second contract of about $200,000?

Admiral TWINING. If they do not have any difficulties. Of course if all is plain sailing it might give them a profit of perhaps—oh, it would be in round figures 90 per cent on a 9-hour work day basis; but we had a similar experience with another type of torpedo, for which they had a contract for 100, and which was only completed about a year ago, on which a similar allowance was made; I think the allowance was not quite so much, perhaps $300 or $400 in excess of what would have been the normal price, and the company lost nearly $100,000 on the contract owing to continued changes they had to make. Any new type of torpedo, until you have made 50 or 100 of them, you can not be sure but what you have got to make changes, and they may be very radical changes, which may be very expensive. As I say, not having completed any number of that particular torpedo, yet my estimate of $5,000 or $5,600 is more or less problematical. It may be more or less than that. On that basis I am negotiating now for further contracts. On such contracts I do not expect to pay them more than $8,200.

The CHAIRMAN. "Modernizing projectiles, for rebanding projectiles and fitting long points, and other changes as required, $150,000," as against $300,000 last year. What has been appropriated altogether for that rebanding and fitting?

Admiral TWINING. The appropriation last year was the first. I asked for $450,000 last year, and the appropriation bill gave me $300,000, and I am asking for the remainder now, and that will complete the work.

The CHAIRMAN. "Mines and mining appliances; for naval defenses, mines, appliances, and accessories for mine ships, $100,000." What have you to say about that?

Admiral TWINING. This question of mines is one that has been occupying the attention of the Navy Department to a great extent recently. We have never done very much in the way of developing mines in this country. Congress has been asked several times to appropriate. I think the total of the estimates submitted was something over $1,000,000, of which only $200,000 has been appropriated. The act of March 4, 1907, and the act of June 24, 1910, each carried $100,000. In addition to that I find that approximately $125,000 has been spent from the annual appropriations of the Bureau of Ordnance for mines and mining appliances, making a total of about $325,000, as a result of which we have about 325 mines. During the war between Japan and Russia there were over 6,000 mines used by the two sides, and some of them, if you remember, were used to very good effect. The Japanese suffered really more than the Russians. They lost two battle ships and several smaller vessels. Russia lost a battle ship and had some of her vessels very seriously damaged, so they were not able to take part in the war. It is a thing I think we should not any longer neglect, to provide a sufficient number of mines, and I regret that I did not ask for more money this

year.

The CHAIRMAN. You say here, "For naval defense mines, appliances and accessories for mine ships." What does the mine cost you?

Admiral TWINING. There are two types of mines, one the anchored mine, such as we fitted out the San Francisco with, which cost about $1,000 apiece. There is also the floating mine, which would be laid from fast vessels, destroyers, or fast auxiliaries, which cost about $500 apiece. That is the type of mine of which the largest number was used in the war between Russia and Japan.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is the type that broke adrift and blew up some merchant vessels?

Admiral TWINING. We are obligated by the terms of The Hague Convention of 1907 to have all anchored mines so designed that if they break adrift they become inoperative, and any floating mine mine must become inoperative one hour after it goes overboard. Mr. ROBERTS. One hour after going overboard? Admiral TwINING. One hour.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it accomplish? Does it keep the enemy from overtaking you?

Admiral TWINING. It is to keep the enemy from overtaking you. to keep him out of a certain locality, or make him take a certain course. It is really a means of fighting the enemy by making him do what you want him to do in the matter of the direction you want him to steer. They were used very successfully in that way in the operations around Port Arthur, between Japan and Russia.

The CHAIRMAN. At that time, however, they were not limited to one hour, were they?

Admiral TWINING. Not at that time; no. I mean that in the particular way I have described they are valuable; that is, when they remain operative one-half of an hour or three-quarters of an hour after they go overboard. You sow them in front of the enemy's fleet and he can not come after you.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not that limitation of one hour very materially impair the value of these mines in war time?

Admiral TWINING. It restricts their useful field, of course, to a considerable extent. It would force people to use an anchored mine where they could, without that restriction, use a floating mine, which is very much cheaper, costing about half as much. The anchored mine has the advantage that it can be recovered.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't they have to be picked up?

Admiral TWINING. They would have to be picked up or they would destroy other vessels. They remain operative as long as they are

anchored.

The CHAIRMAN. "Torpedo station, Newport, for labor and material, general care, etc., $80,000.” The same as last year?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you need the $80,000; do you have any unexpended balance?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir; the money has been sufficient, but not any more than we need.

The CHAIRMAN. This is labor and material used in what way? Admiral TWINING. For maintaining the station, for minor repairs to buildings, keeping up the grounds, and providing for the handling of freight, and bringing supplies for the station, and general maintenance of the station.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the investment at the station; what per cent would that $80,000 represent? If you do not know, you can put it in the hearing.

Admiral TWINING. The total investment of the torpedo station is about $1,238,000.

The CHAIRMAN. "For new machinery and tools for torpedo factory, $15,000," instead of $50,000 as last year. The $50,000 last year was in the nature of an enlargement, was it not?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; that was for a specific purpose.

This

is really a new item that I have estimated for this year, and which I propose to make an annual item, the same as we have the $125,000 at the gun factory, and it represents about the same percentage of the value of the machinery plant.

The CHAIRMAN. About 4 per cent?

Admiral TWINING. About 4 per cent; it is an annual appropriation that I should like to have for new and improved machinery. I perhaps should have said in there, "new and improved machinery," instead of "new machinery," making it read very much the same as at the gun factory.

The CHAIRMAN. "Experiments, Bureau of Ordnance." The language is the same, but you are increasing the appropriation from $100,000 last year to $200,000 this year.

Admiral TWINING. That is on account of the extensive experiments that the department is undertaking and is expecting to continue at the request of this committee, which will consume more money than

we have been expending. I should like to say in regard to this sum, as near as I can get it from figures that are not at all accurate, this particular experiment recently carried out cost the Government about $67,000. Now the result of it has been that we have proved that armor piercing shell will penetrate armor.

The CHAIRMAN. I will ask you to state, to go into the record, what was the result, so far, of the experiments conducted at the request of the committee last year.

Admiral TWINING. I am preparing a complete report on them to the department now, and one or more copies will be sent to the members of the committee, so I would like to make this very brief statement here, as the report is not completed yet. The result has been to prove to the satisfaction of the department that the theoretical penetration of armor, as based on proving-ground data, can be realized at long ranges; also it has demonstrated to the satisfaction of the department that an armor-piercing shell, even when it does not pass through a protective deck behind armor, can do a great deal of damage by its detonation and explosion behind the armor. It has also demonstrated that an armor-piercing shell striking the armored deck of the vessel can seriously damage the ship, even though it may not penetrate; it can do a great deal of damage by blowing large holes in the deck and throwing large fragments of the shell and the deck into the machinery and boilers of the ship. Those are the three principal things we have concluded so far.

The CHAIRMAN. At what distance were you firing in these experi

ments?

Admiral TWINING. We fired seven rounds at 10,000 yards and 22 rounds at 12,450 yards.

The CHAIRMAN. Two thousand yards represent a sea mile, does it not?

Admiral TWINING. A sea mile, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What caliber gun were you using?

Admiral TwINING. 12-inch.

Mr. ROBERTS. This item next year would not be $200,000; it would go back to $100,000, would it not?

Admiral TWINING. For 1915.

Mr. ROBERTS. Hereafter, the one we are appropriating for?

Admiral TWINING. No, I do not see any reason now to expect we will need hereafter more than the fund of $100,000. I can not positively predict for the future.

Mr. ROBERTS. When these experiments are carried out, then you will drop back to the normal $100,000?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; unless new matters come up.

The CHAIRMAN. The experiments so far made did not embrace any experiments with reference to contact explosions, did they?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you contemplate, under this provision, making experiments with contact explosive shells?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir. We are carrying out the preliminary experiments at the proving ground now to determine in how large a mass these high explosives can be safely fired, in order to construct our shell. As soon as that data is determined we will be ready to manufacture our shell and carry out the long-range shell experiments.

Mr. ROBERTS. Will those shells be constructed on Mr. Isham's ideas?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, they will be constructed with compartments, or a diaphragm shell. It is the only way that particular explosive and some others can be fired, if they can be fired that way. There is no other that I know of.

The CHAIRMAN. "Arming and equipping naval militia." The language is the same and the appropriation is the same. "Repairs, Bureau of Ordnance." That is the same as last year?

Admiral TwINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. "Contingent, Bureau of Ordnance, $9,500." That is the same?

Admiral TwINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What allotment do you get, Admiral, from the appropriations for the Bureau of Equipment?

Admiral TWINING. None whatever.

The CHAIRMAN. Nothing is allotted to you for that?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So you are not interested in that?
Admiral TWINING. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What other items, Admiral, have you?
Admiral TWINING. The increase of the Navy.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we will turn to page 126 "Increase of Navy, increase of the Navy, armor and armament, toward the armor and armament of vessels heretofore authorized, to be available until expended, $6,500,000." I see the appropriation last year had the language "heretofore and herein authorized," and you have stricken out "and herein," and you make the amount $6,500,000 instead of the total of last year of $7,265,200 ?

Admiral TwINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. But the equivalent amount last year, as worked down, would have been $5,000,000. Why do you make this increase? Admiral TWINING. It is owing to the unusually late date on which the bill for the current year was passed. The amount included therein for the first year's work on the armor and armament for vessels authorized was very small, being only $2,265,200. Having a full fiscal year at this time

The CHAIRMAN. You will need that for the vessels heretofore authorized?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir. Of course, some of that money is used to pay for armor which has already been contracted for. We contract for all of the armor of the vessel without regard to the actual amount of money appropriated. Simply the authorization of the ship covers the contract for the armor.

The CHAIRMAN. "To be available until expended." You have added the same language, then, for the same reason as incorporatedAdmiral TWINING (interposing). Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the provision in the sundry civil bill of last year limit the appropriations under the increase of the Navy?

Admiral TWINING. I understand that it makes them annual appropriations.

The CHAIRMAN. Under the increase as well as the Navy establishment?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

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