The CHAIRMAN. What are torpedoes costing you to manufacture now, in your later manufacturing? If I remember correctly, they were costing about $4,600 and some odd dollars a year ago?

Admiral TWINING. I stated in my hearing last winter just what the cost of the first 20 torpedoes manufactured at Newport was, and I said that in the second lot, which included the 75, I expected to see a considerable reduction in cost. The reduction in cost has been a great deal more than I anticipated it would be. Those 75 torpedoes, when completed, will cost a little less than $3,600 apiece.

Mr. ROBERTS. What size are those torpedoes?

Admiral TWINING. Those are 18-inch torpedoes-what we call the 5.2 meter in length; about 18 inches in diameter, Whitehead type. Mr. ROBERTS. What are the largest torpedoes we are using? Admiral TWINING. Twenty-one feet long, 21 inches diameter.

Mr. ROBERTS. Are not some larger than that made-are there not 24-inch torpedoes made?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir; there has been nothing larger than 21 inches. There have been some longer than 21 feet, but nothing larger than 21 inches in diameter.

Mr. ROBERTS. What is the range of those 21-inch torpedoes?

Admiral TWINING. Some are designed for 10,000 yards range and some for a shorter range, 4,000 to 5,000 yards, with a higher speed. They will do 5,000-well, to be conservative, say 4,000-at 35-knot speed, and are expected to do 10,000 yards at about a 27-knot speed. Mr. ROBERTS. That is the average speed?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. BATHRICK. They leave the ship at a much more rapid speed than they arrive at the limit of their range, do they not?

Admiral Twining. The two types of torpedoes-the Bliss-Leavitt and the Whitehead-differ somewhat in that respect. The BlissLeavitt torpedo is operated by a turbine engine, and the variation in speed is not so great as in the Whitehead. We only allow a variation of, I think, half a knot, or something like that. They get their maximum speed very quickly after they are started and keep it to the end, until they stop. The Whitehead torpedo, of course, falls off a little more in speed.

The CHAIRMAN. According to my statement a month ago, giving my recollection, I stated the cost of the torpedoes was about $4,600. By referring here, I notice you stated the first torpedoes built by the Government at Newport cost about $5,870.

Admiral TWINING. I had forgotten just what the figure was.

The CHAIRMAN. And I understand you now to say that the second lot of 75 are costing less than $3,500?

Admiral TWINING. Three thousand four hundred and forty-two dollars and eighty-five cents plus $100 for range tests.

Mr. ROBERTS. Are those turbines?

Admiral TWINING. They are reciprocating engine torpedoes of the Whitehead type. A very little of that is estimated; it is almost all actual cost, because, as I say, the torpedoes are now having their range tests.

Mr. BATHRICK. Who makes those torpedoes?

Admiral TWINING. They are made in the Government station at Newport.

Mr. BATHRICK. The Government manufactures them?
Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. We bought some Whiteheads abroad, did we not? What did we pay for them?

Admiral TWINING. That same torpedo bought abroad, exclusive of freight and duty, costs $3,297.

The CHAIRMAN. The duty on them is 45 per cent, is it not?

Mr. ROBERTS. We got a provision that war material should come in free, did we not?

Admiral TWINING. By the way, that is a matter I should like to speak to the committee about at the proper time.

Mr. BATHRICK. What is the difference? We pay it to ourselves, do we not?

The CHAIRMAN. But we are charged up with it. We are put in a position of appropriating and appearing to pay for the torpedoes about $5,000, when as a matter of fact they are costing us less than $4,000.

Mr. MACON. What Brother Bathrick meant was that the Government took money out of one pocket and put it into the other.

Admiral TWINING. That is what I wanted to ask the committee about.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is a little more than that, because we have to pay the cost of handling the money, so there is a loss of money in it. If I remember correctly on that question, that provision that was put in last year under the interpretation might be construed as a limitation instead of legislation, and you want the word "hereafter" inserted?

Admiral TWINING Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I noticed that in the report, so as to make it permanent legislation instead of simply a limitation for that year. Mr. ROBERTS. Admiral, you say the Whitehead torpedoes cost $3,297, exclusive of freight and duty?

Admiral TwINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. What are we paying for the Bliss-Leavitt torpedoes, taking the same 21-inch? They are making 21-inch torpedoes, are they not?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir. The Bliss-Leavitt torpedo, that corresponds most nearly in the range power and speed to that torpedo, is an 18-inch torpedo, for which we pay about $5,800.

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand you, Admiral, we are paying for the Bliss-Leavitt torpedo about what was estimated last year as the cost of the Government manufacture.

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you are manufacturing them at substantially $3,500?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Shall you be able to purchase torpedoes at approximately what you are manufacturing them for?

Admiral TWINING. No, sir; we have got to allow, of course, a pretty good profit on them. If we assume that the private contractor could turn out that torpedo at a cost of $3,500, he would still be entitled to a profit on it anywhere from 20 to 40 per cent, which would run it up over $5,000. We want to manufacture as many as we can at Newport and the rest of them we must buy, and we can either go abroad and get them a little cheaper or we can buy them at home. We should probably combine them both.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the capacity of the factory at Newport, with the increases that we provided for year before last and for last year?

Admiral TWINING. The designed capacity of the plant is 100 torpedoes a year. Owing to the fact that we have had to devote an unexpectedly large part of the space and of the working force and time to the repair work, I think that capacity is cut down to about 90, and on the 1st of July, 1915, we will be on that actual basis; that is, we will be producing 90 a year at that time. Of course we are still suffering from the delay incident to starting the work, so we have not caught up to the 90 capacity yet, but I had a pretty careful examination of the situation made recently, and we expect to have this 75 that I just spoke of as having been running their range trials now, delivered shortly, and 75 more on the 15th of March, 1914, and the first order of 90 delivered on the 1st of July, 1915, and thereafter there will be 90 delivered every 1st of July.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the estimated cost of an enlargement of that factory to enable you to make a larger proportion of your torpedoes at the same cost or less?

Admiral TWINING. I would say, roughly, $250,000. I should wish to verify that, of course. I have in mind about five or six additional buildings that would be needed and that ought to cost between $40,000 and $50,000.

Mr. ROBERTS. Let me ask you, Have you land enough there at Newport for the additional buildings?

Admiral TWINING. There is land enough there to establish a factory with a capacity of 400 torpedoes a year and to take care of all the repair work in addition. Beyond that I think probably we could not go.

The CHAIRMAN. Taking the $250,000 appropriation that you estimate for, would there be land enough to care for the enlargement contemplated by that $250,000?

Admiral TwINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that would increase your capacity from 90 to 150 a year?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And take care of the repair work also?

Admiral TWINING. And take care of the repair work; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That would give you an annual increase of 60 torpedoes, with a reduction of something like $2,400 per torpedo? Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the enlarged capacity aid you in further reducing the cost?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; whenever you increase the output you reduce the cost somewhat. Probably there would not be any very great reduction.

The CHAIRMAN. So that with the estimated reduction of, say, $2,400 per torpedo on the price that we are paying now of $5,800, it would be a very good interest on the investment, would it not? Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Are all the torpedoes, each individual torpedo that we purchase, tested before it is accepted?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; every one.

Mr. ROBERTS. Where does the cost of those tests fall, on the manufacturer or on the Government?

Admiral TWINING. It falls on the manufacturer, and, of course, he adds it to the cost. Some recent figures I have show that the Bliss people have to pay about $400 per torpedo for tests. They have a testing station at Sag Harbor, Long Island. Of course, this is a long distance from their factory.

Mr. ROBERTS. You have an inspector at these tests, have you not?
Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. You also test your own torpedoes, do you not?
Admiral TWINING. Those are tested at Newport.

Mr. ROBERTS. When you figure your torpedo cost at $3,400, do you figure in the cost of testing?

Admiral TWINING. $100. That is not included in the $3,400. Adding that $100 makes the cost $3,500. Of course we can test very much cheaper there, because our testing range is alongside the factory at Newport.

Mr. ROBERTS. I wish to ask a question about the different types of engines the reciprocating engine and the turbine engine. Which type gives the greater speed?

Admiral TWINING. I do not know that there is any particular difference in that respect. You can get just as high speed out of the reciprocating engine, but I do not think you can get as long a range; we regard the turbine torpedo as superior on account of its greater durability.

Mr. ROBERTS. Can the turbine torpedo be controlled in its flight as well as the torpedo with the reciprocating engine?

Admiral TWINING. Just as well; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. So that, on the whole, the turbine is a little more desirable, is it not?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir; and I have reason to believe that certain foreign countries are reaching the same conclusion.

Mr. ROBERTS. Have we the right to use the turbine on torpedoes? Admiral TWINING. We have the parent patents in this country, but we do not own them abroad. The Navy Department owns them in this

country.

Mr. ROBERTS. So at your factory there we can build the turbine type?

Admiral TWINING. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Are you designing to build any?

Admiral TWINING. We are getting up now what we call a standard Navy torpedo, which includes all the best features of all the torpedoes we know about, and that will have a turbine engine. We hope it will be a good one.

Mr. ROBERTS. There is one further question I wish to ask in regard to the developments in the diameter of the torpedoes in the last eight or nine years. Can you send, say, a 14-inch or a 16-inch or an 18-inch torpedo through a 21-inch tube-discharge it from the ship through such a tube?

Admiral TwWINING. No, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. In other words, the tube must be of the same diameter as the torpedo?

Admiral TWINING. Of the same diameter as the torpedo; yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. One more question. Of this $850,000 asked for here, how much of that will be utilized at the station in the manufacture and how much in purchase of torpedoes?

Admiral TWINING. That whole appropriation is intended to cover the procuring of 116 torpedoes.

Mr. ROBERTS. You mean by contract or by manufacture?

Admiral TWINING. Of those we would probably manufacture about 25 at Newport, leaving something like 90 to be purchased. That is merely a provisional arrangement. Of course we have other appropriations out of which we purchase torpedoes or provide them for new vessels, so that 116 would not represent all the torpedoes we will require in one year. We also have the "Increase of the Navy' appropriation to cover those for new vessels.

Mr. MACON. About what is the weight of a torpedo?

Admiral TWINING. These 18-inch torpedoes I am speaking about, such as we build at Newport, weigh 1,500 pounds, the 21 feet by 21 inches about 2,800 pounds.

Mr. BATHRICK. How many Bliss Leavitt torpedoes do you buy a year?

Admiral TWINING. On the 26th of June we entered into a contract with the Bliss people for 240 of one type and 50 of another; that is, 290. Those contracts run about 30 months.

Mr. BATHRICK. Are those at the $5,800 price?

Admiral TWINING. Two hundred and forty of them we got for about $5,800, and 50 long-range torpedoes we got for $9,500, upon that first order.

Mr. BATHRICK. You expressed an opinion a short time ago that you hoped to materially decrease the contract price of all these torpedoes? Admiral TWINING. I hope so, but of course I do not know yet. Mr. BATHRICK. On the Bliss-Leavitt also?

Admiral TWINING. That was the one I was speaking of.

Mr. BATHRICK. I was simply pursuing the suggestion of the chairman as to the advisability of increasing the Government's capacity and what saving would possibly be made, if you would save considerably on the present price of the Bliss Leavitt torpedoes. That is the only torpedo where we save anything by the increased capacity. Do you need absolutely to buy the Bliss-Leavitt torpedo?

Admiral TWINING. We believe it is the best torpedo to-day in existence, but we can manufacture that same torpedo at Newport by paying them royalties on certain features.

Mr. BATHRICK. About how much royalty on the whole torpedo? Admiral TWINING. About $750.

Mr. BATHRICK. Then could you make it for $3,500?

Admiral TWINING. If you take the present price, including range test of $100, and add $750 the cost would be $4,250.

Mr. BATHRICK. Would it not be advisable to do that rather than contract any more at this price?

Admiral TWINING. If we had the capacity, yes. Of course that opens up the question as to whether or not the Government should make all its own war material or buy it all, or do both. Personally I believe it is a good thing to divide, even though you pay a little more. You get outside ideas in your work then, and you do not get into a rut. You have some competition, and there is also some question as to the policy of employing private parties.

Mr. ROBERTS. And it will help you in the time of war, too.