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of Yards and Docks, was because it was not known just exactly what was to be built. For that reason the amount was kept intact with the idea of the President allotting to the Bureau of Yards and Docks such amount as might be required for the public works part of it, as provided under distribution of duties of Bureau of Equipment, and can not see that there is any real objection to such procedure in view of the indefinite conditions.

Mr. HOBSON. In connection with Mr. Talbott's question the point arises whether it might not be proper for you to charge against other bureaus the labor which you do for them instead of simply lumping it in your "maintenance" under the Secretary of the Navy.

Admiral STANFORD. That would involve some difficulty. For instance, at Pearl Harbor the public works department is not only constructing buildings and paving and erecting a power plant and building a dry dock and various other works which are in progress, but is also building a coaling station, using funds from the appropriation "Depots for coal." The office is handling all of this work simultaneously, and there is no sharp line of division or demarcation which separates the chief clerk's time that is spent in connection with the coaling station from that which is spent for the general development of the station. Of course, certain inspectors give their entire time to the coaling plant. Their time can be accurately determined, but it would complicate the bookkeeping, and I can not believe that it would result in any very great improvement in

Mr. BUCHANAN (interposing). Is it not misleading to have the expense of designing this wireless-tower work appear in this way; the real cost does not show in the proper place?

Admiral STANFORD. The item covering the cost of designing and inspection must be added to construction costs to get the true total. The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, it is not now?

Admiral STANFORD. No, sir.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It is not taken out of the appropriation?
Admiral STANFORD. It is not.

Mr. BUCHANAN. And it would be very difficult to know what the cost of the construction of the plant was because the real cost in that case would not be charged up to the construction work. Do you think it should be? Do you not think that it is rather misleading?

Admiral STANFORD. It is, in a measure. It has been the endeavor of the Secretary, particularly in connection with the work of the manufacturing divisions at the yards, to have the final cost of any piece of work include the cost of the power which is furnished from the central plant, the cost of the water, and all other expenditures which are in any way involved. It is almost an impossible task to collect all those items and really and absolutely show the true cost of any particular piece of work.

Mr. BUCHANAN. It would not be difficult to ascertain the cost of designing or the construction of this wireless plant?

Admiral STANFORD. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. HOBSON. In a private plant, like Cramps or Newport News, or in department stores and the like, where a thorough system of bookkeeping and accounting is kept, do they not arrange to separate, substantially, the cost of every particular object so as to be able to tell at the end of the year just where the money has been spent?

Admiral STANFORD. I am inclined to think so, if it is a repeat process. In other words, if it is an identical article that is handled or manufactured over and over again; but in the case of navy-yard operations the identical work that is being done to-day, it may safely be stated, has never been done before and never will be done again. Before I entered the service I was the superintendent of the Pittsburgh Bridge Co. plant, and we had a certain indirect or overhead percentage added to every piece of work we did that covered the office expense. The amount was not segregated into separate items for drafting room, janitor service, etc., but it was determined as a result of previous operations that the office expense was a certain percentage of the shop expense, and that percentage was arbitrarily added to actual costs.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Hobson speaks of keeping the accounts of the department stores so as to get at the cost. I do not think he would think for a moment that such a system would give the cost of selling a pair of roller skates or a sled or a set of furniture, or anything of that sort, but in a general way what it costs to sell all the goods in the course of a year in that department. That would be a physical and absolute impossibility.

Mr. HOBSON. They can tell whether or not a thing pays.

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes, sir. It is done by departments rather than the articles they handle.

Admiral STANFORD. There has been an accounting department arranged for each of the navy yards which has been in operation for some time which is obtaining some excellent results in line with the thought you bring forth.

Mr. HOBSON. Have you any suggestions to make as the result of your investigation upon the present plan bearing upon the possible improvement in accounting so as to estimate the actual cost of objects for which appropriations are made?

Admiral STANFORD. Not at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is, "Contingent, Bureau of Yards and Docks: For contingent expenses that may arise at navy yards and stations, $30,000." That is the same as it has been for a number of years?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir; there is no change.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is, "Public works, Bureau of Yards and Docks, navy yard, Portsmouth, N. H.: Fitting up room for storage of cranes, $9,000." Please explain that item.

Admiral STANFORD. A portion of the boiler room in the central power plant is not at present required for boiler-room use. It is proposed to inclose in fireproof construction a portion of this area for use as a shelter for the yard locomotives and locomotive cranes. This arrangement will place the locomotive equipment under the care of the power-house fireman, which will insure the readiness of the apparatus when required without undue cost. A temporary wooden shed is now used for locomotives and cranes. This shed is not conveniently located; has been on fire several times and is a real fire menace. The vacation of this shed would permit of its removal.

The CHAIRMAN. It is the intention to use this room you have already and adapt it to this purpose?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many cranes have you there?

Admiral STANFORD. Two.

The CHAIRMAN. Will this space accommodate both of them?
Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. Do you propose to put the yard locomotives in there, too?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. How many yard locomotives have you there? Admiral STANFORD. There are two. It is difficult when this apparatus is kept out of doors to prevent damage from freezing; somebody has to be in constant attendance looking after the fires during the winter months, for protection against freezing. The fireman on duty in the fireroom would incidentally look after the locomotive equipment if housed in the boiler room as proposed.

The CHAIRMAN. The next is, "Garbage crematory, $6,000."

Admiral STANFORD. This item is to provide a suitable crematory for disposal of yard waste. It is necessary at this station to burn or otherwise destroy all refuse inasmuch as it would create a nuisance if dumped into the sea.

Mr. ROBERTS. Is this crematory supposed to take care of the garbage that comes from the officers' houses, from the barracks, and from the kitchens?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir. At some of the yards the organic waste is collected by people who have pigs or who can make some other use of the material; the crematory will be used if the wastes are not otherwise more satisfactorily disposed of.

Mr. ROBERTS. I know there is great rivalry at some yards for garbage, and I was wondering why it was proposed to burn it up or whether it is of a kind that will burn.

Admiral STANFORD. It is that kind of crematory that is proposed, but whether it is proposed to burn only a part of the waste

Mr. ROBERTS (interposing). What I wanted to know was whether the crematory proposed would dispose of the refuse from kitchens and garbage coming from the quarters, etc.

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir; that is the type of crematory that it is proposed to construct.

The CHAIRMAN. You stated that this garbage could not be dumped into the sea without creating a nuisance. Please state why.

Admiral STANFORD. There are many summer resorts in the vicinity of the yard. To dump garbage into the sea would result in the matter being cast up on the beach to the hardship of the people who have water-front property.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean that decaying and filthy matter would be cast up by the sea and that that would be a nuisance to residents along the beach?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir; it would be unsightly as well as insanitary.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. Has this nuisance been permitted up to this time?

Admiral STANFORD. Not to my knowledge. Open fires are now used for its disposal, as may be necessary.

Mr. WITHERSPOON. Then this is to provide a better way of consuming it than the one you have adopted heretofore? Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is, "Central administration building, rebuilding building numbered 86 (to be immediately available), $20,000." Is that one building or two buildings? The item refers to a central administration building and the rebuilding of building No. 86.

Admiral STANFORD. That item, and also the following one, "Roadway to hospital, $7,000," I understand have been eliminated by the department.

Mr. ROBERTS. There was an appropriation last year for a floating crane, the cost not to exceed $325,000. One hundred and fifty thousand dollars was appropriated for this purpose, leaving a balance of $175,000 to be appropriated in the future. One hundred and fifty thousand dollars was appropriated last year. Will that appropriation carry you through the next fiscal year in the construction of that crane?

Admiral STANFORD. Do you mean at the Boston yard?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.

Admiral STANFORD. That work is being done under contract.

Mr. ROBERTS. Will the appropriation already made carry you through another fiscal year? I see that you are not asking for anything more for the completion of the crane.

The CHAIRMAN. Did we not appropriate the full amount for that? Mr. ROBERTS. No, sir. This item reads, "toward 150-ton floating crane (cost not to exceed $325,000), $150,000.”

The CHAIRMAN. But did we not make an appropriation before that?

Mr. ROBERTS. No, sir. I am quite sure that that is the first appropriation that was made. The language of the appropriation shows that quite clearly.

Admiral STANFORD. Then, that is an oversight if it is not in there. Mr. ROBERTS. It struck me that way, because if that work is under contract it certainly ought to be provided for.

Admiral STANFORD. That work is nearing completion.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you insert in the hearings a statement concerning the matter, showing the total amount that has been appropriated and what amount will be necessary to complete the work? Admiral STANFORD. I will do so.

Mr. ROBERTS. I remember that there was some discussion over this matter last year. If that work is nearing completion, the balance of the money ought to be provided. Will you look that up Admiral, and let us know about it?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir. Authorized cost was $325,000. Act of March 4, 1911, appropriated $150,000 and act of August 22, 1912, an additional $150,000. Contract price is $293,072. The appropriation of $300,000 is more than sufficient for the completion of the crane which is the reason that no request was submitted for the remaining $25,000 which was authorized.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is "Navy yard, Boston, Mass.: Paving, to continue, $15,000." Instead of $10,000 last year?

Mr. ROBERTS. Where do you propose to place that paving? Admiral STANFORD. A better connection is desired with some of the piers, in order to facilitate the handling of material, and part of it is required to replace old cobblestone pavement which has become

very rough and leading to inconvenience and loss in the use of the pavement. A portion of the amount will be required at the north end of the yard, which has not yet been paved, and a part of it will be spent on the main street near the head of the new dry dock.

Mr. ROBERTS. Is this for repaving? That main street was paved with brick a few years ago, was it not?

Admiral STANFORD. It was paved with a poor quality of brick, and it is badly worn. It is not intended to use a specific appropriation for repair work, but there are places where the work becomes a matter of reconstruction rather than repair.

Mr. HOBSON. Why was this brick used?

Admiral STANFORD. It was supposed to be a good quality. Specifications for paving brick are now very rigid, and provide not only for determining abrasion loss but also crushing strength, and each carload is tested in the laboratory in order to see that the brick conforms to the specifications.

The CHAIRMAN. When you are speaking of paving you do not mean the paving of sidewalks, but of the main streets, with brick, so as to make them roadworthy?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir; but not necessarily with brick.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is for the streets, whatever material is used? Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is to make them roadworthy?

Admiral STANFORD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This is practically for the construction of streets instead of paving them, is it not?

Admiral STANFORD. It is for the surfacing of the streets.

The CHAIRMAN. How much paving do you propose to do with this $15,000? What is your paving costing you per square yard? Admiral STANFORD. Paving at the Boston yard has cost about $3 per square yard.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you estimate that the cost will be $3 per square yard?

Admiral STANFORD. Because of advance in wages and materials it may now cost as much as $3.25 per square yard.

Mr. Foss. How does that compare with the cost of paving done by municipalities?

Admiral STANFORD. That compares favorably with municipal paving. Municipal paving varies largely in cost for the same reasons that obtain in the navy yards. There are places where the ground is not firm or compact, which requires a more substantial base than where the conditions are better. Costs differ also depending upon the kind of paving, whether it is asphalt, brick, granite block, wood block, or of some other variety. The kind of paving must be adapted to the particular purpose which it is to serve.

The CHAIRMAN. I hope the reverse of your first statement is not true with reference to navy yards; that is, that all the conditions that prevail with reference to municipal paving do not exist in the navy yards.

Admiral STANFORD. I am glad to say that some of them do not. Mr. LEE. What does paving cost at the League Island Navy Yard? The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Roberts, I want to call your attention to the fact, and also the admiral's attention to the fact, that in the act of 1911 there was an appropriation of $150,000 for the crane at the

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